Talk:2019 Bærum murder and mosque attack

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The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

Lankford, Adam; Allely, Clare S.; McLaren, Sonya A. (2024-10-13). "The Gamification of Mass Violence: Social Factors, Video Game Influence, and Attack Presentation in the Christchurch Mass Shooting and Its Copycats". Studies in Conflict & Terrorism. 0 (0): 1–25. doi:10.1080/1057610X.2024.2413184. ISSN 1057-610X.
Norris, Jesse J (2024). "Could the Futility of Terrorism Inspire Deradicalization? Narrative Strategies Arising from Case Studies of Far-Right Lone-Actor Terrorism". Journal for Deradicalization (38). ISSN 2363-9849.
Sandboe, Inger Storm; Obaidi, Milan (2023). "Imagined Extremist Communities: The Paradox of the Community-Driven Lone-Actor Terrorist". Perspectives on Terrorism. 17 (4): 19–41. ISSN 2334-3745. JSTOR 27274057.
Thorleifsson, Cathrine (January 2022). "From cyberfascism to terrorism: On 4chan/pol/ culture and the transnational production of memetic violence: Nations & Nationalism". Nations and Nationalism. 28 (1): 286–301. doi:10.1111/nana.12780. ISSN 1354-5078.
Vestel, Viggo Jan; Rosten, Monika (2024-06-24). "Seven critical events regarding Islam and Muslims in Norway - Three points of tension". Revista de Estudios Internacionales Mediterráneos (36): 57–84. doi:10.15366/reim2024.36.003. ISSN 1887-4460.
Wilhelmsen, Fredrik (2022-05-13). "When the Medium Is Not the Message". Fascism. 11 (1): 109–138. doi:10.1163/22116257-bja10025. ISSN 2211-6249.

On 21 December 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to 2019 Bærum murder and mosque shooting. The result of the discussion was Moved to 2019 Bærum murder and mosque attack.

Adding name of victim in 2023?

I think it would be appropriate to change the article to include the victim's name, considering that there are now multiple articles in the mainstream press discussing her in relation to the attack. More on that can be added to the article if need be, and I think it should as there were reports that she was concerned about his radicalization. Especially considering their family relation, it seems appropriate to mention her and in line with the wishes of the family, given how Manshaus's stepmother has spoken out.

Just wanted to seek consensus before making any edits. PARAKANYAA (talk) 19:58, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article contains the name of the injured victim, but not the slain one. This inconsistency seems irreverent. Definitely worth a change for the sake of Wikipedia's reputation in my opinion. 2001:56A:FE18:2400:ED59:ED21:2325:107F (talk) 13:01, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I guess it could be argued that since there was coverage of what Rafiq did it deserved to be included but at this stage there's also lots of coverage of Ihle-Hansen.

I'll add more about her as well, to make the case for inclusion stronger. PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:38, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please put into the article, at the end of a relevant section

On 15 March 2024, Manhaus's lawyer held a press conference. She said that Manhaus now has distanced himself from "the views that he expressed before, during, and after the trial".

Source, https://www.nettavisen.no/nyheter/manshaus-saken-gjenapnes-tar-avstand-fra-holdningene/s/5-95-1706719. Nettavisen.no. Retrieved 2024-03-15.
80.67.37.2 (talk) 13:44, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Re-opening of case (as of mid-March 2024)

The case is being opened today. It seems that the authorities have ruled that Manshaus was psychotic when he committed the crimes. Source, https://www.dagsavisen.no/nyheter/innenriks/2024/03/15/manshaus-saken-gjenapnes/. 80.67.37.2 (talk) 13:52, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will add this stuff later today. This page needs to be updated more anyway. Thank you for the heads up! PARAKANYAA (talk) 22:38, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Scoping/possible rename

I have been wanting to improve this article for two years, since it is entirely stuck in the breaking news aftermath of when it happened instead of the later coverage, but I am frustrated by its scope. While all of the breaking coverage focuses on the mosque shooting, later coverage tends to focus more on Ihle-Hansen's murder (see the books, the docuseries, later news coverage) though with still substantial focus on the mosque attack. The more severe sentence Manshaus received was for murdering Ihle-Hansen, not for the failed mosque shooting.

Norwegian Wikipedia has solved this by having a separate article for Manshaus and having one event article called, literally, "The murder and mosque attack in Bærum 2019", which I guess a possible more natural English reshuffle would be "2019 Bærum murder and mosque attack", which is awkward but probably technically more reflective of its scope. Does anyone have any suggestions? The current state of affairs, where the vast majority of the coverage is about something not reflected by the title, is unsatisfactory. PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:35, 19 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 21 December 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to 2019 Bærum murder and mosque attack. (closed by non-admin page mover) Toadspike [Talk] 17:07, 11 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Bærum mosque shooting → 2019 Bærum murder and mosque shooting – Pursuant to the discussion above, which no one responded to: I have been wanting to improve this article for two years, since it is entirely stuck in the breaking news aftermath of when it happened instead of the later coverage, but I am frustrated by its scope, which makes it difficult to reflect what non-breaking news sources cover about this case.

While all of the breaking coverage focuses on the mosque shooting, later coverage tends to focus both on Ihle-Hansen's murder (see the books, the docuseries, later news coverage) with about equal weight to the mosque attack. This is a problem because there was a separate motive for the killing of his sister, the background for what lead up to this event heavily involves her, and the more severe sentence Manshaus received was for murdering Ihle-Hansen, not for the failed mosque shooting.

This is very close to what the Norwegian wikipedia titles its article on this case. I would title it closer to what the books and documentaries do, but they are usually titled after Manshaus's name. I am open to other suggestions as I know this isn't perfect but I do feel that any title for this article needs to not strictly focus it on the mosque event. The year is optional, but according to WP:NCE if an event is not broadly known it should include the year. This event is not widely known outside of Norway, but if people feel otherwise it could be titled Bærum murder and mosque shooting (edit: a better target would be 2019 Bærum murder and mosque attack, as Cameron suggests) PARAKANYAA (talk) 09:57, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nomination. However, I do observe that since nobody was hit by the shots fired at the mosque, the word "attack" might be a better description because a shooting implies there were injuries or deaths. - Cameron Dewe (talk)
Yeah, I am inclined to agree. It's also closer to the Norwegian title. That was actually my original proposal but this article has been at "shooting" for 5 years now so I kept it as to not rock the boat. But 2019 Bærum murder and mosque attack would be preferable. PARAKANYAA (talk) 23:20, 25 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I support using "attack", ahead of "shooting". - Cameron Dewe (talk) 05:18, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Change "Bærum" to "Baerum" per MOS:LIG and sources. The first two English-language sources cited in the article ([1] and [2]) don't use the ligature. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@BarrelProof It says "except in proper names" and in languages in which they are standard and the city article, Bærum, is titled with the ligature. As long as the city article has the ligature this should as well or else it gets very confusing. PARAKANYAA (talk) 02:59, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose the city name is a proper name, but the article is in English. The next two English-language sources I see ([3] and [4]) also don't use the ligature either. The article about the city can be renamed too. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 03:10, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@BarrelProof Our article on the city is also in English. If we were to move the name of the city, I would have no opposition to removing it - I don't think it's usually written with the ligature in English - but I believe a name that involves a place should preferably always be consistent with the name of the article we have on the place. PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:17, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BarrelProof: I note you have started a move proposal for moving Bærum to Baerum. Currently, there redirect is in the opposite direction. Whether a ligature is used or not, the name used in this article should at least be WP:CONSISTENT with whatever the place name article is called, with a redirect from the alternative name. MOS:LIG is not the final word on this topic and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) § Modified letters indicates usage is "neither encouraged or discouraged", and MOS:LIG itself excludes proper names, which would mean the place-name is excluded, anyway. I think we should pause any discussion here concerning whether to use Bærum to Baerum and await the result of that move proposal, before deciding which spelling to use. Meanwhile, this move proposal should proceed independently to debate the merits of the rest of the article title, and then simply agree to use whatever title the place that these events occurred at may be known by in Wikipedia, with a redirect from the other spelling alternative. Should the place name change, then the place name in this article should follow, without needing a separate proposal to change the name. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 05:15, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I think it should be changed from Bærum mosque shooting → 2019 Bærum attacks since it includes both incidents (sororicide at home and failed shooting at the mosque), both occured in Bærum and both were "attacks" in there own respect. Long Wolf from Sennoy (talk) 23:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's better than the current title but I also think it's less clear than the suggested one. Characterizing it as an attack wholly also downplays the murder bit, and is generally just an odd way to refer to her murder. PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:07, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: That omitting murder from the title title loses sight of the fact that the primary crime is the "Murder of Johanne Ihle-Hansen" and I would rather the article be named that way than omitting the word murder from the title. An article should be named for the most serious crime committed. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths). Technically, an "attack" is not a crime, and what happened at the mosque is better described as an assault on the building and the worshipers present. Though the assault on mosque worshipers seems to me to be little more than an ill-planned copycat crime to distract from the murder of the perpetrator's step-sister. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 02:35, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to be trying to reduce the breaking news sources of which there are far, far too many, and replace them with later news/academia/the docuseries. PARAKANYAA (talk) 03:13, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support 2019 Bærum murder and mosque attack. The murder should be within scope, and this is probably the best way of doing it (it's long, but I think the precision-vs.-concision trade-off is worth it). Bærum should be consistent with the main article, so that part should just depend on how the other RM is closed. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 23:44, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.