Talk:2024 Afghanistan–Pakistan skirmishes

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October 2024

@Noorullah21

Hi, you say that the BLA attacks and TTP attacks are separate from the border clashes, in that case, shouldn’t their casualties and side not be in the article at all? It seems contradictory. VirtualVagabond (talk) 23:25, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@VirtualVagabond My point exactly, but I moved them to a third section for now. If you feel they should be entirely excluded from the article, I'm not against it, and rather support it. Noorullah (talk) 00:42, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Skirmishes"

Skirmish: "an episode of irregular or unpremeditated fighting, especially between small or outlying parts of armies or fleets."

It's premeditated fighting, airstrikes and raids. The article should be renamed as "conflict", and "skirmishes" (skirmish) rewritten as clashes. 94.246.147.217 (talk) 23:38, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also if you don't have a source (reference) saying precisely and explicitly (for example) "61 killed or wounded" either don't try to calculate any total yourself (which is original research) and write "Unknown", or use any source saying any TOTAL figures by any date and then also note that given date and who claimed this or that figure (like "(Pakistan claim as of [date])"). Even something like "dozens" would also do, if this is what a source actually says (again, no original researching at all).

Read Wikipedia:No original research, also regarding synthesis (not allowed). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.246.147.217 (talk) 03:08, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

About the title: there are definitely a bunch of WP articles that say "border skirmish" and that say "border clashes", and I find it hard to distinguish between them. My hunch is that the title should be whatever sources tend to call it, and looking around for a bit it in news about the recent fighting it seems "clash" is used by Al Jazeera and VoA (which uses "clashes" when referring to Pakistan's fighting in 2024, and also talks about targeting for the recent events). Sources that don't use either word but say the violence is coordinated/targeted include Reuters (says the Taliban says they targeted points in response to "coordinated attacks"), whose story was reprinted by CNN and France24; and AP. I think it makes sense to change the title, but I'd suggest "clashes" instead of "conflict" since the broader conflict is from before 2024.

I think specific incidents in the article should be looked at case-by-case, going by what sources say. I do see at least one place where "skirmish" didn't make sense from the source.

About the numbers: WP:CALC says it's allowed to do basic math without explicit sources, but yeah I don't see sources for the numbers in the breakdown in the infobox. The infobox numbers are also way different from numbers given in at least this VoA article (which says Pakistan says 900 "terrorists" and 400 Pakistani security forces killed). It's also not obvious what the "first phase" and "second phase" are. Infobox casualties could use some attention Placeholderer (talk) 03:57, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Again, it's just Wikipedia's misuse of the word skirmish that means something else entirely. Also per dictionary (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/skirmish). Good find on the VOA article figures (from a few days ago, before the most recent major escalation). Also from the AP one, Pakistan claiming "more than 950 Pakistanis, including security personnel and civilians, have been killed in 2024 alone." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.246.147.217 (talk) 04:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That claim is regarding the Insurgency in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, which these skirmishes are a part of, but the two are not mutual Waleed (talk) 05:48, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 December 2024

It has been proposed in this section that 2024 Afghanistan–Pakistan skirmishes be renamed and moved to Afghanistan–Pakistan conflict.

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2024 Afghanistan–Pakistan skirmishes → Afghanistan–Pakistan conflict – As mentioned it's not "skirmishes" (and soon it's going to be 2025).94.246.147.217 (talk) 03:19, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per my comment above I suggest "2024 Afghanistan–Pakistan clashes", or "2024–present" if it keeps going, or "2024–2025" if it continues into 2025 then stops Placeholderer (talk) 04:04, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We should wait until 2025 and see if any new clashes emerged. If they did then we can change the name to Afghanistan–Pakistan clashes (2024 - present) as per Placeholderer. - Ratnahastin (talk) 10:10, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merger discussion

Two articles with limited scope and heavy bias (such as calling it a war), those being 2024 Taliban-Pakistan War and 2024 Pakistan–Afghanistan tension should be speedily merged into this article Waleed (talk) 04:56, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@N2e, @NAUser0001 and @Eltabar243, being the page creators, please contribute to this discussion Waleed (talk) 18:43, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Phases"

The sources used for the end of the "first phase" in the info box only reported on some more continued fighting. It could well be that just the article simply wasn't being updated after that, until the late December when the "second phase" was invented on Wikipedia. 94.246.147.217 (talk) 05:16, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

i agree there is no mention in sources of any first second phase, the events should be mentioned in the main body according to months or dates since its a continued conflict. Rahim231 (talk) 05:23, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's reasonable to have two ranges of dates in the infobox, because otherwise it would be implied that fighting has been continuous since March. Maybe phrasing other than "first/second phase" can be used, but I think it's fine to arbitrarily break up a subject (example: Ukraine War timeline, though that's articles that were broken up because there was too much info) if it's for a good reason Placeholderer (talk) 05:40, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes the skirmishes aren't continuous with Afghan Taliban unlike TTP, its the nature of skirmishes of Afghanistan and Pakistan. It can be arranged as a timeline although border skirmishes occurred twice at March and December only and were heightened unlike regular skrimishes or a continued invasion by a country like Russo-Ukraine war. Rahim231 (talk) 06:07, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Casualties

The casualties in the article seem to be of the entre Insurgency in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa in 2024, rather than simply the skirmishes and related events Waleed (talk) 05:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]