Talk:Catherine Grand/GA1

GA Review

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Nominator: WoodElf (talk · contribs) 23:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Borsoka (talk · contribs) 12:45, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it well written?
A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?
A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

C. It contains no original research:

D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
Is it neutral?
It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
Is it stable?
It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

I see this is your first GAN. I would like to help you to improve this article to meet all GA criteria. Please regard my comments as suggestions, and feel free to ignore any of them, but in this case share your arguments with me. Borsoka (talk) 12:58, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

~~File:Proudhon Pierre Paul - Portrait of Princess Catherine Talleyrand.jpeg: the source at Commons is a dead link. US PD tag is needed (sorry, I failed to mention this.)~~
~~File:Ghiretta House, by James Moffett.jpg: US PD tag is needed at Commons.~~ Borsoka (talk) 12:58, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking the time to review my nomination. I have made the following changes:

Updated the link for File:Proudhon Pierre Paul - Portrait of Princess Catherine Talleyrand.jpeg
Updated the US PD tag for File:Ghiretta House, by James Moffett.jpg

User:WoodElf 17:21, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Added US PD tag for File:Proudhon Pierre Paul - Portrait of Princess Catherine Talleyrand.jpeg too. User:WoodElf 10:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Why do you think, ~~Busteed (1908), Charrière de Sévery (1925),~~ Grand (1814), ~~and Lehuraux (1908)~~ are still reliable sources?
~~Why do you think, the two works cited from Shapland are reliable sources?~~ Borsoka (talk) 12:58, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Please find my comments on the justification of each below:
- Busteed (1908) contains the most detailed description of this period of the subject's life. However these details are also corroborated in more recent books, I can provide an alternate / additional citation if you feel that would be more appropriate. - please advise.
- Same reason as above. Charrière de Sévery (1925) provided the most detailed description; alt / additional citation if needed?
- I have cited Grand (1814) for biographical details of his own life. I can update this using a more modern citation.
- Again, Lehuraux (1908) provided a detailed description compared to other sources. Joelson (1965) would be the alternate citation.
While not academic journals, the articles are provided by the India Office Records of the British Library, which I would consider a reliable source; or at least as reliable as say Baetjer (2014) cited in the same article, which is a catalogue entry from the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York.

User:WoodElf 17:31, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think Grand cannot be regarded as an independent source, so I think statements verified by a citation to his work should be confirmed by independent sources. Borsoka (talk) 02:28, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I have provided a different citation. User:WoodElf 12:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Is the article's title fully in line with WP:NAME? It says, "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject." For me, the cited sources suggests that she is mainly known as Madame Grand, but I may be wrong. Borsoka (talk) 13:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The subject is variously referred to as Catherine Grand, Madame Grand, and Madame de Talleyrand-Perigord is the various citations. These alternates are mentioned in the info box. I would argue since the subject's first name is known and quite often used in the sources, it is preferable to Madame Grand, which would be an exception to MOS:NAME. I would prefer to call her simply "Grand" in the text body, but I have referred to her as "Catherine", "Mrs Grand" or "Madame Grand" to differentiate her from her husband, also surname Grand. User:WoodElf 17:48, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In the first sentence of the lead "Madame Grand" should be mentioned as a widely used name, because for the time being the article's title suggests that Catherine Grand is her most common name, while she is introduced as Mme de Talleyrand-Perigord. Borsoka (talk) 02:28, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I have updated the lede to clarify that she was commonly called Madame Grand. User:WoodElf 12:31, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I have not read the lead, but I assume it could be expanded by a paragraph.
...in the Danish possession of Tranquebar I would mention that Tranquebar is a town, and also mention India.
...a French Indian colonial official... Delete French. The link implies that he was employed by a company not by the state.
Pierre was the son of Adam Werlée and Marie Bodeveuc. Delete.
Introduce the "Third Carnatic War" as a war between the French and British.
Introduce Chandernagore as a town in French India.
She was poorly educated, ... Some context?
It served as the country house of the French Governors of Chandernagore. Reference?
..., the son of Jean Jacques Grand, a merchant from Lausanne, Switzerland, and his wife Françoise Elizabeth Le Clerc de Virly Delete.
... Grand obtained a writership (a writer being a clerk attached to the East India Company)... Rephrase.
Introduce Alipore as a town/village.
They embarked... Who?
...(later father of Harriet Grote)... Delete. Borsoka (talk) 02:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
All done, except for the last point: I think it's a interesting bit of trivia that her lover was the father of another historical figure. User:WoodElf 12:32, 10 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]