Talk:Continental Freemasonry

The Name

I've looked a bit further. Latin Freemasonry seems to be a fairly common shorthand, but rather dispariging (all three references seem to be from different times and perspectives, but they all seem to dislike Latin Freemasonry). Irregular Freemasonry is a perjorative term from the UGLE freemasons, so while probably the most common English language term it would be equivalent to calling Protestants "schismatics". The two terms that I've found that seem to be self described are "Liberal Freemasonry" from the French and "Adogmatic Freemasonry" from the Belgians.

I prefer "liberal" to "adogmatic" for the following reasons: (1) it comes from the GOdF website; (2) it seems to be in more common currency in the English speaking world; and (3) it just trips off the tongue better.

I'll rename this article to "Liberal Freemasonry" if no-one has any objections.

JASpencer 19:18, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Eh... it's better, but I still think it is a bit POV. There are liberals and conservatives in all the different traditions of Freemasonry. The vast majority of Masonic scholars (those trying to be neutral on the topic) call it "Continental" or "Oriental" Freemasonry. However, the fact that GoDF uses it does verify the name "officially", so I suppose it is better than nothing.

That said... the name is really secondary to the greater POV and OR issues in the article. And it does not address the fact that this is in essence a POV fork. I really think you would do better by staying at the Catholicism and Freemasonry article and helping us get rid of the POV and OR that is there, rather than copying chunks of it into other articles. All you are doing is spreading the POV and OR around. Blueboar 19:34, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

This is not a POV fork, it's simply a subject that should have had an article years ago.

On the name I take it that you would prefer "Liberal" freemasonry? I wouldn't worry too much about the political connotations as outside the US there is not really the ideological connection.

JASpencer 20:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I strongly support the move to "Liberal Freemasonry" as the article title. After extensive research into Masonic terminology, this appears to be the most appropriate, neutral, and historically accurate term for several compelling reasons.

The term "Liberal Freemasonry" has significant advantages over alternatives. It is officially used by the Grand Orient de France and reflects the historical self-identification of these Masonic bodies. While some might argue that "Continental" or "Oriental" Freemasonry are more common in scholarly works, these terms are primarily geographic descriptors and fail to capture the philosophical distinctions that define this tradition and the worldwide spread of these Lodges and Obediences.

The alternatives present significant problems. "Latin Freemasonry," while historically used, appears predominantly in critical contexts and often carries pejorative connotations. "Irregular Freemasonry" is explicitly problematic as it represents the perspective of opposing Masonic bodies (particularly UGLE) and would be akin to referring to Protestant churches as "schismatic churches" in religious articles.

While "Adogmatic Freemasonry" is used by Belgian Masons, "Liberal Freemasonry" has broader acceptance and usage in English-language discourse. The term "liberal" in this context should not be confused with modern political connotations, particularly those specific to U.S. politics. In Masonic context, it refers to the philosophical principles of free inquiry and intellectual liberty that characterized the European Enlightenment period from which this tradition emerged.

1. The term "Liberal Freemasonry" emerged from the European Enlightenment tradition and reflects the movement's emphasis on intellectual freedom and philosophical inquiry. This terminology has historical precedent in Masonic literature and accurately represents the philosophical orientation of these organizations without imposing value judgments.
2. The term is widely understood across multiple languages and jurisdictions, making it particularly suitable for an international encyclopedia. It facilitates clear communication about Masonic traditions while respecting the self-identification of the organizations involved.

For these above reasons I vote in favor of the renaming of this article to Liberal Freemasonry. HyperSite (talk) 07:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Liberal vs. Adogmatic

I came across this source maintains that "liberal" refers to membership, and "adogmatic" - to Supreme Being. The source appears to have NPOV, despite coming from Anglo-American side of masonry. If it is correct, then "liberal" does not equal "adogmatic" does not equal "Continental." From that classification point, Anglo-American masonry would be considered "conservative" and "dogmatic". Can anyone confirm or deny this? Truther2012 (talk) 13:29, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

An interesting, if novel, distinction. But beside the point... this isn't about whether various Masonic bodies are liberal, or adogmatic, or continental, etc... we are not using these terms as a description of the topic branch of Freemasonry... but as Names for it. These are the names used by multiple sources when referring to the branch of Freemasonry that is the topic of this article. "Continental Freemasonry" is the name used by Anglo-American Freemasons for them. "Liberal Freemasonry" and "Adogmatic Freemasonry" are both names the topic branch uses for itself.

This is like "Boston Massacre"... any historian will tell you that, as a description of the event, the word massacre is very inaccurate. Nevertheless, accurate or not, that is the accepted name for the event... and so we use it in Wikipedia... despite its inaccuracy. Blueboar (talk) 15:38, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

See WP:POVNAMING for more on this. Blueboar (talk) 15:38, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

If we cared about NPOV in this area, then Liberal Freemasonry would be a better name as this is the most common name outside Wikipedia, and it's how they most often refer to themselves. Continental Freemasonry is an accepted name, but it's by no means the best one - which would be Liberal Freemasonry. However it's going to stir up the hornets nest that is Project Freemasonry so it's not a fight worth having. JASpencer (talk) 20:31, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Considering that you created the redirect from Liberal Freemasonry to Continental Freemasonry in the first place, that's a very hypocritical statement. MSJapan (talk) 23:40, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

MSJapan, you really ought to check your facts as this is both wrong and misleading. Wrong - I did not create this redirect - it was created four years before, I simply put in another redirect to what I thought was a better destination. Misleading - the redirect was done in 2013 whereas on this very page I'd said that Liberal was a better term in 2007. I still don't think it's worth the candle as we get people playing dirty and throwing insults like hypocrite when I just tried to make the case for the most neutral and descriptive name. JASpencer (talk) 19:52, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

To get to Truther's question, though, maybe, maybe not. Certain Rectified Rites are not recognized by the Anglo-American branch, and they are neither adogmatic nor liberal. However, I do think there may be a way forward there; I just need to figure out how, and if we can get something sensible out of it as an end result. MSJapan (talk) 00:12, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I am bringing this up less for the naming convention or recognition, but rather classification methodology within Continental branch. According to the above source, bodies within Continental can be classified along Liberal – Conservative / Dogmatic – Adogmatic continuums. In this sense, one dimension refers to the issue of female membership (mixed/female only = Liberal, male only = Conservative), the other to the issue of VSOL and Supreme Being (required = Dogmatic, none = Adogmatic). This wouldn’t be applicable to Anglo-Am, because by definition it is homogeneously Conservative and Adogmatic. Truther2012 (talk) 13:33, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

GOUSA - removal

I have removed our mention of the Grand Orient of the United States of America from the North America section... it seems that they may have folded. Their website has been down for over a year now. Even if there is a rump group out there, that rump is so tiny that I think we can omit them from the article based on WP:UNDUE. Blueboar (talk) 15:15, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Good call. Since this came up in List of Masonic Grand Lodges, they have stopped posting to Facebook and their Freemasonry 101 site has died. In short, they're not even pretending to function any more. Fiddlersmouth (talk) 15:51, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Politics & the KKK

I have removed a recent addition stating that the Anglo-American tradition of not discussing politics in the lodge led to Masons turning a blind eye to institutional racism. The source does not support this conclusion. Yes, much to the shame of modern Freemasons, there was (and in a few jurisdictions still is) institutional racism in US Masonry... and the source highlights this well. But it does not connect that (mostly historic) racism to the tradition of not discussing politics. Blueboar (talk) 17:55, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Regular Masonic jurisdiction which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:40, 21 March 2020 (UTC)