Talk:Jesu, nun sei gepreiset, BWV 41

Application of a uniform template for Bach's Cantatas

I am going through the pages currently existing on Wiki for Bach's cantatas, after editing a Bach Cantata Pilgrimage section, and thought I'd make an effort to standardize their presentation inasmuch as possible.

Consequently, I've created a few sections: a general intro that contains the German title, alongside a literal translation to English, BWV number, and type of cantata (sacred vs. secular).

This section also contains the prescribed readings and the authorship of the texts, when known, as well as the authorship of the chorale theme.

The articles are completed with a scoring and structure section, followed by the complete German text, in three columns, and a list of complete recordings (as I can find online, obviously. I'm sure there are many more recordings).

I plan on applying this template to all articles (existing or to be created) on the cantatas. Any advice/recommendation would be greatly appreciated and surely taken into account. Campelli (talk) 21:08, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Where is the aforementioned German text? Including an English translation would be nice.

Reading this while listening to an aria of the cantata in question, I was unsure how the original melody by Melchior Vulpius went. When referring to motifs or melodies, it would be nice to actually write them down in G clef (or have a button to click to hear them played). 2604:2000:F64D:FC00:88DA:F5BC:DD22:95AB (talk) 16:10, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Well, aforementioned was more than 10 years ago. Text and a translation are in the first source, Dellal, [1]. We decided not to have the text in the articles, as too German for many readers, nor a translation, as a matter of taste. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:21, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Jesu, nun sei gepreiset, BWV 41/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Gerda Arendt (talk · contribs) 15:52, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Tails Wx (talk · contribs) 20:49, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Looking to review this! I'll have it done right before Christmas in time for this to run successful as a DYK nomination! ~ Tails Wx 20:49, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

2. Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

   C. It contains no original research:

   Spotchecks completed on most sources; didn't find any original research involved on this article!

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

   Nothing on Copyvio, most are false positives.

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Comments

All comments concern primarily the prose; other than that, the article looks great. Nice work!

• "The feast celebrated also" – might need to re-arrange "also" and "celebrated", but even "celebrated" is on the MOS Words to Watch (puffery) list, so that could be re-worded as wel

  English is not my first language, - for my simple understanding a feast is something celebrating something, - what other options would there be? What is not neutral about saying that? The people in Leipzig at Bach's time celebrated the New Year, and the naming of Jesus, - I don't see what's wrong with that. --GA

  That's a fair point...disregard that. ~ Tails Wx 01:47, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

• "The feast also celebrated the naming and circumcision of Jesus." – ditto from the last part of the previous comment
• "but hymn and cantata" – could "the" be placed between "but" and "hymn"? I was slightly confused while reading this so that could be better said, I think.

  how about "but both the hymn and the cantata"? --GA

• "by using material from the first movement, trumpet fanfares, also in the last, ending the work similarly to its beginning." – that could also be re-worded as well. Are the trumpet fanfares also included in the last movement or something...?

  Well, first it was only "by using material from the first movement also in the last", then I thought that it would be more impressive to specify that the material is dominated by the trumpet fanfares, - how would you say that? --GA

  I was initially confused on whether the trumpet fanfares took place in the last movement, but after reading this again, I'm understanding it a little better now. ~ Tails Wx 01:47, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

• "That year, Bach composed his chorale cantata cycle, begun on the first Sunday after Trinity of 1724" – how about "That year, Bach composed his chorale cantata cycle beginning on the first Sunday after Trinity of 1724"?

  Not sure. There could be a full szop after cycle. The rest is added to say exactly when it began which may be a surprise that it it is not the beginning of the liturgical year, First Sunday of Advent, but that other Sunday, for the simple reason that Bach took office then. What do you think? --GA

  Yeah, you could have a full stop after cycle and then note when it began the sentence after. ~ Tails Wx 01:47, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

  I turned it all around, please check. ---GA

• "three stanzas long stanzas" – probably some repetition here

  yes, fixed --GA

• "Its melody is by Melchior Vulpius": This could be rephrased better, maybe something along the lines of "The melody was created by German composer Melchior Vulpius"

  I tried "Its melody was composed by MV". --GA

• "who first published it in his Ein schön geistlich Gesangbuch" – could there be context as to what "Ein schön geistlich Gesangbuch" is?

  Should I try to translate it? But how? All three words have more than one meaning. (A beautiful spiritual hymnal, A fine sacred songbook), - it's also older German. It's a kind of hymnal which I thought would be expected for the publication of a hymn melody. It has very little impact on Bach's cantata in what kind of book the melody first appeared, no? --GA

  I mean, translation isn't really necessary here, it's really what "Ein schön geistlich Gesangbuch" is. I would note before that is being said that it is a hymn, as you say. ~ Tails Wx 01:47, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

  Well, the lead says it, the infobox says it (using the other word, "chorale", to connect to "chorale cantata cycle"), the passage about hymn and text says it, and the just clarified sentence says it in the same section. Do you really think it needs to be repeated? ---GA

  Augh, didn't see that too. Sorry about that. ~ Tails Wx 22:26, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

• "He expanded the 14 lines by additional ideas but without specific references to the Gospel reading" – did he use the ideas? If so, "using" could be added with clarification for what the additional ideas were, if possible.

  I can only say what the source says (which is that he took ideas and also added ideas), or it would be OR. --GA

• "as the work began, as a "closing of the circle" – comma could be removed here

  To my understanding, without the comma it would say that the work began as a closing of a circle, but no, the closing ... is that it ended as it began. Or what? --GA

  That's another misunderstanding on my part... ~ Tails Wx 01:47, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

That's all I got! Great work on the article so far, Gerda Arendt! Just needs a few prose fixes, mainly in the "History, hymn and words" section. ~ Tails Wx 21:46, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for replying. I'll proceed to nominate for DYK, feeling we are already close. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:19, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Gerda Arendt, I'm comfortable marking this as a successful GAN. Congrats! (and sorry for the misunderstanding on a few of the points -- I didn't look clearly.) ~ Tails Wx 22:26, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that in Jesu, nun sei gepreiset, BWV 41, Bach's chorale cantata for New Year's Day 1725, unusually the trumpet fanfares from the beginning are repeated in the last movement? Source: [2]
  • Reviewed: Loew's Jersey Theatre
  • Comment: For 1 January, obviously ;)

Improved to Good Article status by Gerda Arendt (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 2129 past nominations.

Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:34, 25 December 2024 (UTC).

Comment: I'd propose rewording the last phrase to "the trumpet fanfares from the beginning are unusually repeated in the last movement?". ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 17:45, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Also, as the article is written, that the fanfare is "unusual" is not found in the text, nor does it seem to be supported by the source. You're going to want to find a different source or find a different hook.~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 17:48, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps ALT1: ... that Jesu, nun sei gepreiset, Bach's chorale cantata for New Year's Day 1725, echoes the cycle of a year by beginning and ending with a trumpet fanfare? ~Darth Stabro^{Talk • Contribs} 17:52, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the proposal! - It is unusual - and in the article - that Bach uses any concertante music in the closing chorale, where in most cases the instruments just go with the voices. It is more unusual - and in the article - that he quotes the exact material from the opening movement later in the closing chorale, - I actually don't know any other case in the c. 200 church cantatas. This material - which is in the article - happens to be trumpet fanfares, which I think is understood as an important signal even by our famous general readership. English is not my first language, so help with wording is welcome! However, I think saying "the cantata echoes" (whatever) is too poetic language. We can drop "unusual" - any reader who followed will see that, and others will not care.

ALT1a: ... that in Jesu, nun sei gepreiset, BWV 41, Bach's chorale cantata for New Year's Day 1725, the trumpet fanfares from the beginning are repeated in the closing chorale, illustrating the cycle of a year?

ALT1b: ... that in Jesu, nun sei gepreiset, BWV 41, Bach's chorale cantata for New Year's Day 1725, the trumpet fanfares from the beginning are repeated in the closing chorale?--Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:28, 27 December 2024 (UTC)