Talk:John (bishop of Banyas)

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... that Archbishop Ernesius was sent to Europe to request help for the Kingdom of Jerusalem, but barely survived a sea storm and did not dare set sail again?

Source: Hamilton, p. 133

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Helvis of Ramla

Created by Surtsicna (talk). Number of QPQs required: 2. Nominator has 192 past nominations.

Surtsicna (talk) 14:44, 5 January 2025 (UTC).[reply]

Most things look good, but can you (1) provide a footnote at the end of the sentence which reads "The prelates were driven...", and (2) can you see if the following hook is appropriate? If ALT1 is true to the facts, can you make sure it is properly cited in the article (e.g., is it the Mediterranean we're talking about)? Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 02:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
- ALT1 ... that twelfth-century Archbishop Ernesius attempted to cross the Mediterranean Sea with two other bishops, but was thwarted by a severe storm?

Thanks, Arbitrarily0! Footnote duplicated. ALT1 is certainly true, but there is no source saying they were crossing the Mediterranean. That would basically be WP:CALC for there is no other sea for them to cross. Perhaps a combination of ALT0 and ALT1 might be most interesting? Surtsicna (talk) 10:30, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

ALT2: ... that Archbishop Ernesius and two other bishops attempted to reach Europe by sea, but were driven back by a severe storm and did not dare set sail again?

On second thought, I don't think we need a source to identify the sea with the Mediterranean. He was bishop over Caesarea Maritima, after all. But do you have a reason for not wanting "twelfth-century" included? There needs to be some more context for the hook to become interesting. The other concern I have is about "daring" to set sail again. That's not quite what the source says: "none of the passengers would consent to risk again the perils of the deep." Allow me to propose ALT3. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 14:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

ALT3 ... that Ernesius, the twelfth-century Archbishop of Caesarea, was once prevented from crossing the Mediterranean by such a severe storm that he refused to make a second attempt.

Arbitrarily0, I think a more concise hook is likelier to hold readers' attention; ALT3, in particular, is over the character limit. I also must confess that I do not see the difference between "did not dare" and "would not consent to risk again the perils", but the ALT3 wording is fine with me. Surtsicna (talk) 14:46, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Having shortened ALT3 slightly, everything checks out. But, for what it's worth: if someone "does not dare", it means their primary motivation against acting is fear. But "not consenting to risk" is different. It could mean that someone thinks, in a rational, unemotional manner, that the costs do not outweigh the gains. That said, feel free to keep making a case for your original hook; we can also get someone else's opinion. But ALT3, at minimum, is good to go. Thank you, again, for your work on this article. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 16:08, 9 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]