Talk:John Neal

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:John Neal (writer) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:17, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:John Neal (writer) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 11:19, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2 January 2025

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn by nominator (direct link to comment). (non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 18:38, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

– As it currently stands, the two John Neals whom are both footballers have their articles separated by “, born (year).” From a realistic standpoint this seems unnecessary under the concise guideline. There are multiple ways we can do this without having to have the born year disambiguation at the end for they can be distinguished without it if the titles are changed.

John Neal of 1932 is known for being both a footballer and a football team manager. Although known for his football career, he is just equally as known for his managerial career. Needing to distinguish him as a footballer when two English footballers exist seems unnecessary when he could easily be distinguished as a manager for English football. This would also pave the way for John Neal of 1966 to be just footballer or remove him completely in favor of James J. Neal thereby using his middle name initial.

Also, both players are not from Australia so why is it that the naming conventions for Australian football are being applied here when they are not Australian?

The whole naming convention is unnecessary for these two footballers when it could be renamed in a different manner while being just as concise and precise as the originals. Reader of Information (talk) 23:53, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

naming conventions for Australian football are being applied: seems like the usual association football naming conventions at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (sportspeople)#Association football (soccer).

John Neal (footballer) → John Neal (disambiguation) ought to be removed from this RM, as redirects like (footballer) are ineligible to be moved per WP:MOVEREDIRECT
Neutral on John Neal (footballer, born 1932) → John Neal (manager)
John Neal (footballer, born 1966) → John J. Neal: I see no indication that sources use the middle initial; WP:MIDDLE cautions, Adding given names, or their abbreviations, merely for disambiguation purposes (if that format of the name is not commonly used to refer to the person) is not advised.

Cheers, Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 04:25, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The current disambiguation is the method we commonly use for footballers. If they are known as both a player and a manager then we use "footballer". And we do not add middle initials as disambiguators unless they are commonly used. Solution in search of a problem. No idea why Australia was brought up, as it's completely irrelevant. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:45, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose all as 1. (footballer) is the common, consistent disambiguator used by WP:FOOTY for footballers who are managers. 2. Middle names should not be used unless they are WP:COMMONNAMEs which isn't the case here. 3. moving a redirect won't be done. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:00, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. Giant Snowman 17:24, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

IMPORTANT

Per @Rotideypoc41352:'s comment, there is another alternative to this problem.

We could change the John Neal of 1932 to (defender) and the 1966 John Neal to (forward) per the soccer link naming conventions provided in his comment. Reader of Information (talk) 17:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

But this is ambiguous, because John Neal (Welsh footballer) is also a forward. Positions are not ideal. The order of preference goes YOB (miles ahead), positions, nationality. Giant Snowman 17:31, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Neceothesp:, @Joesph2302:, @GiantSnowman:

Courtesy pings. Reader of Information (talk) 17:31, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have already replied. Giant Snowman 17:33, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I send it before I saw your comment. Apologies. Reader of Information (talk) 17:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

sent* Reader of Information (talk) 17:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as above, the current disambiguation is standard and the suggestions are, respectfully, bad. Giant Snowman 17:30, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
We really don't even have any other options as is. The (born) aspect is honestly 10x worse. Plus, it's their nationality that made it for them to distinguish as Welsh but with the two English one's it presents a dilemma. Plus is it really encyclopedic to have the title as (born year)? Reader of Information (talk) 17:33, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Sure John Neal of 1966 played for the Irish League as a youth but didn't afterwards so we can't really use it as (Irish footballer) . Reader of Information (talk) 17:35, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There is countless "worser" page titles such as Mark Howard (footballer, born January 1986), Mark Howard (footballer, born September 1986), Lee Martin (footballer, born February 1968), Lee Martin (footballer, born September 1968), Paul Robinson (footballer, born December 1978), Paul Robinson (footballer, born November 1978), etc. Sahaib (talk) 18:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmmm. Maybe this is more than it seems. Maybe this warrants a project wide discussion as the problem seems to be a lot more rampant than it seems. I am going to withdraw this move and bring it into a discussion on the soccer wiki project

@Liz: Liz, can you withdraw the move per nomination. I'll make this a Wikipedia project discussion. Reader of Information (talk) 18:22, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:John Neal (writer) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 00:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]