Talk:Precognition/Archive 3

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Citation Needed on my changes to Physics section

Someone added 2 citations needed. The first thing is very basic and well known. For the second, I lifted the wording from retrocausality in physics There are about 20 citations for that there. It doesn't seem sensible copying them without repeating the article content. And it doesn't seem sensibe copying the article content either. People just have to go to retrocausality in physics — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.124.126.171 (talk) 14:56, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry but Wikipedia doesn't work that way. References are needed and you can't reference another Wikipedia article, since we don't consider Wikipedia a reliable source. — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 15:14, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Ha, ha - yes that bit about Wikipedia not being a reliable source. I've added some of the citations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.124.126.171 (talk) 15:36, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. It looks like a lot though, do all of those sources say that? Maybe you added too many. — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 16:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I removed those sources because 1. None of them mention precognition so it is original research and 2. It was an extreme fringe position with undue weight. Robert the Magician (talk) 22:19, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Robert the Magician - you've rewritten the article to make it (even) more totally one-sided. If the article is going to have a claim like. " the phenomena go against established principles of science. Specifically, precognition would violate the principle that an effect cannot occur before its cause." well, then it should have some discussion of that point. If its going to claim (to paraphrase) that it isn't compatible with physics - well that blanket skeptical assertion should be at least tempered by the mention of the physics with which premonition is consistent. But you don't want that.

I'm not going to try adding anything else to the article. Its clearly a waste of my time. I will just say this: All the good work elsewhere on Wikipedia is undermined by articles like this: this page isn't an encyclopedia article - that requires balance. This page its a sceptical diatribe. With anything else removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.83.226.138 (talk) 11:38, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Assumptions that precognitive dreams would defy causality?

I've personally had precognitive dreams on at least one occasion which I vividly remember, but describing it is only precognitive in hindsight. That is to say, the contents of the dream weren't readily worth noting until the event had taken place, at which point I realized that I had specifically seen the waking life event previously in a dream. There truly aren't real prophecies in the waking life short of self fulfilling prophecies designed against simpler people (reinforcing the immense damage to all causality incurred by the simple act of lying), but the prophetic dreams are more alike a confirmation of an event rather than literally recording an event before it occurs, which could possibly be later confirmed once the event had come to pass. I know what Deja Vu is, but that is more a general and vague "feeling", whereas a prophetic dream can be quite literally a 1:1 visual representation that can be recalled with identical accuracy. It's not about jerking off ones ego either. I am not a prophetic dreamer, i just happened to have a single vividly memorable dream of hundreds of equally memorable dreams which happened to have a specific, unique visual design within it which later became a real invention within the waking world. What's more, to further dissuade any problem thinking, there is no true motive of gain to claim having seen something in hindsight. This isn't about projecting a psychic ego. It's about freeing your own mind and realizing belief only comes to those who believe, while proof paradoxically proves nothing. 24.205.110.111 (talk) 15:05, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Do you have any suggestions with references to improve the article? Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:14, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

I also do not think that precognitive dreams defy causality. I believe that prophetic dreams only show a possible future, not a necessary one. If the course of events is changed enough, the result too can be changed. So a precognitive dream means, that you are tuned to a hidden cause and see a likely effect. So it is perfectly in accordance with causality. It is still difficult to rationally explain, how comes one be tuned to the hidden cause, though. So precognition can be still looked at critically, but I think that the argument that it violates causality is a bad one. Some sources with similar thoughts can be probably found, but here it's more like my personal reflections which could count as original research, so I didn't want to modify the page, but offer this idea for discussion. 94.230.146.247 (talk) 13:08, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

I did the quiz of the week on the BBC news website today. Question 7 was "Which American institution claimed this week that scientists and philosophers thought there was a 20 to 50% chance that we are all living in a computer-simulated world, like that portrayed in the film The Matrix?". The answer is, apparently, the Bank of America via a sharholder release, albeit I cannot find the original article on the BBC. The link to the quiz question is http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37374758 . I found another article here - www.dolcevita.xyz/society/people/item/465-bank-of-america-analysts-think-there-s-a-50-per-cent-chance-we-live-in-the-matrix . My son is 9. We go to the charity shops quite regularly to source (obtain cheaply) books for him. Sometimes we look at the DVDs. During the summer holidays we went to said shops.

We found a Matrix 1 dvd, we watched it together. There were no copies of Matrix 2 or 3 in the shops at the time, or I would have purchased them (£1 a pop). A couple of weeks later we returned, this time there were no copies of 1 or 3 (and we are talking close to a total of 100O DVDs perused) yet many of 2. I noted this and mentioned to the boy that should we find number 3 on our next visit then perhaps we are living in a Matrix. On Wednesday I popped into the local charity shop. A solitary shop and not one of the prior attendances. It's the first visit since the one's aforementioned. Low and behold there was a Matrix 3. I only write this because, as priorly noted, this article has deep flaws. One might even add that, if we are not in the matrix now, then we are in the process of creating such. 2.24.248.255 (talk) 14:37, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Belief section

The belief section stating that belief in precognition is "widespread" is the viewpoint of non-independent parapsychology sources. The statistics were lifted from primary sourced arguments made in various pro-precognition parapsychology papers claiming a majority of people believe they've had a precognitive experience, and presented without context. I've replaced it with what can be sourced to independent sources [1]. If independent secondary sources have found the parapsychology stats notable, we can certainly reinstate them with appropriate "what parapsychologists believe" framing. - LuckyLouie (talk) 00:49, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

The response to JB Priestley's TV appeal, discussed later in the article, evidences that many people do believe in precognition and is verifiable. I have edited the belief section accordingly. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 15:56, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

Further proposed editing

I propose the following edits to take out some of the bias and to enhance readability.

I would like to argue for "Prescience" instead of "Precognition" as a title for this article. The ability concerns the knowing/ sensing/ perceiving of future (possible) events, not the ability to have thoughts about future (possible) events. The definition of cognition by Meriam-Webster: "conscious mental activities : the activities of thinking, understanding, learning, and remembering". None of the experiments describe a counscious mental activity - all describe a mode of perception.

I would like to propose that the lines "As with other forms of extrasensory perception, there is no evidence that precognition is a real ability possessed by anyone.[5][6][7][8] However it still appears within movies, books, and discussion within the parapsychology community, with claimed precognition of earthquakes sometimes covered by the newsmedia.[9]" are removed. It isn't established that prescience or precognition is an extrasensory perception - in fact: a few of the experiments mentioned in this article argue that it is an inate sense. Nor is it established what the "other forms" are and how they relate to prescience. That it appears in art, media and discussion is not related to its existence nor to its mechanisms.

I would like to propose that the lines: "Scientific investigation of extrasensory perception is complicated by the definition which implies that the phenomena go against established principles of science.[10] Specifically, precognition would violate the principle that an effect cannot occur before its cause.[10] There are established biases affecting human memory and judgment of probability that sometimes create convincing but false impressions of precognition.[11]" are removed. Reference [10] does not support the claims. Neither does the phenomena of prescience (if indeed it exists) need to conform to pre-established ideas of how time works. An article on time can establish such things claims. The second line is misplaced and would be better placed in the 'experiments' section, amongst other experiments that support or negate the hypothesis of the existence of prescience.

Also, I would like to propose that the subtitle of '"Feeling the Future" controversy' is changed to '"Feeling the Future" experiments', to eliminate the bias from this subtitle.

I would like to propose that the meta-analysis of 90 experiments is included in the "Feeling the Future" section: http://w.dbem.ws/FF%20Meta-analysis%206.2.pdf (2014).

I would like to propose that the section on "Scientific reception" is removed. The conclusions of experiments and/or responses to experiments can be included in the "Experiments" section to enhance readability. The causality problem is interesting, but not relevant to this article. As I have said before, the phenomena of prescience doesn't have to explain how time works. If the editors of the article feel that the article does necessitate an explanation of the way time works, then I agree with a previously proposed edit: please include the delayed choice quantum eraser experiments in this article as well.

I would like to propose that the Dunn experiments are placed in the Precognitive Dreams section.

I would like to propose that the item "lists of topics characterized as pseudo-science" is removed from the "See also" section. The works that are cited in this article are scientific, not pseudoscientific. No topics should be labeled 'out of boundary' for science to investigate. Pseudoscience concerns methodology, not content.

It is my experience that an edit of this extent is better left to the original editors. I hope my advice has been helfpul!

AnneloesF (talk) 11:14, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

I would agree with the proposal to edit the subtitle of '"Feeling the Future" controversy' to '"Feeling the Future experiments", to eliminate the bias from this subtitle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Philosi4 (talk • contribs) 20:45, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

On the article title, I do not think that dictionary hair-splitting is the way to go. For example my Collins dictionary defines precognition simply as "foreknowledge". The Google ngram stat counter shows "prescience" to be over twice as common as "precognition", with "prevision" also rivalling the latter. However all the books I have seen on the psi phenomenon refer to "precognition", I am not sure where the other words are more commonly used. I think we would need to find extensive use of "prescience" in the parapsychology literature before we could consider changing the article title. Meanwhile, I agree about the bias and I have tried to reduce it. I hope you agree that I have moved it in the right direction. 19:19, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

On Dunne, the article looks to me as if the sections respectively on experiments and on dreams were created on the assumption that the topics were separable. In the case of Dunne's dream experiments this separation is manifestly inappropriate. Rather than struggle to fit him in to what is there now, it might be better to review the structure of the article as a whole. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 02:30, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

On the other proposals, I do not think they stack up. Simply removing cited scientific criticism is unacceptable. There are plenty of sources for it, so if [10] is ill-chosen then substituting a citation tag would be the better change. The argument that innate is not extra-sensory misunderstands the meaning of extra-sensory. It merely implies a path outside of the known physical senses, and most ESP phenomena are claimed to be innate. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:13, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Rewrite?

"Specifically, precognition appears to violate the principle that an effect cannot occur before its cause."

This needs reworking as it is unclear whether this valid in light of empirical evidence in quantum systems. Any cyberneticists around these days? This seems inconsistent with Gregory Bateson's thinking.

See #Proposed edit: discussion above. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 18:47, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

This article is written under Bias

Even though Precognition can be considered bias it is not widely considered pseudoscience. There are vastly number of scientific articles trying to bring light into the subject, either demythifying it or trying to tie it together to any scientific theory. The critics against it are under two main grounds which are fairly tied to studies against Parapsychology, while the second one does not cite sources or surveys, that is not how science work guys. While there are more scientific evidences against precognition, there is no section which explains how it would be possible by either philosophical discussions or scientific discussions, the article simply points it toward parapsychology and done. Eduemoni^↑talk↓ 13:26, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

I have also added a maintenance tag that this article needs more source, while in the scientific grounds and claims, citing majority psychology studies. However, psychology is not science and it should not be used as sources in scientific experiments, since psychology evaluations, tests and studies tend to have a large human-error or lack of external control than rigorously scientific studies. Eduemoni^↑talk↓ 13:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

I removed the tag, as it was used inappropriately. With over fifty inline citations and half the bibliography being pro-precognition, your thesis is not wholly tenable. Also, there are other templates for article-wide tagging. I agree the article needs more scientific discussion, but it needs it at the highest level of scientific debate. Personally I'd try to flesh out the historical debate more, and use that to highlight material which can be used as a foil to the criticism section. But be aware, our community's "woo detectors" are lethal once triggered. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 14:23, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

The article cites psychological studies, they are not scientific and do not serve as proper reference to the article. Eduemoni^↑talk↓ 16:12, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Did you just say psychology is not a science? And further above, that we should just point to parapsychology and delete all which is critical of it? --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:12, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

"scientific mechanism"

In the section 'Scientific criticism' there is a quote stating "There is no known scientific mechanism which would allow precognition." This is attributed to Wynn, Wiggins, 2001.

The phrase 'scientific mechanism' has little if any meaning these days nor did it in 2001. Try looking it up in a reference work. Mechanistic reductionism is very old-hat, and very misleading for the unwary.

Science doesn't have 'mechanisms', although those using the phrase (perhaps usually not scientists) have repeated it for very many years as a hand-waving dismissal. If it is true that science can't find any evidence for precognition -- or anything else, for that matter -- then it therefore can't frame a hypothesis. That does not mean that the phenomenon doesn't exist. It means that science can no way confirm nor deny it's existence. This is not a criticism of science, it is a recognition that science has nothing to say about it.

I'd suggest a careful and more ... learned source to prove that this is a 'SCIENTIFIC criticism' rather than just a skeptical attitude. We owe that to people who actually trust Wikipedia's assertions.

To finish with a quote from Nobel physicist Richard Feynmann (I believe it's taken from The Pleasure of Finding Things Out):

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. When someone says ‘science teaches such and such’, he is using the word incorrectly. Science doesn’t teach it; experience teaches it.".

Twang (talk) 01:46, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Feel free to make a positive suggestion as to what to say here, and whom to cite in its support. The current wording at least has the benefit of WP:VERIFIABILITY. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:02, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

It's obviously short for something like "mechanism scientifically confirmed to exist" or "scientifically plausible mechanism". Of course there are mechanisms within the scientific worldview, but they are only etymologically related to the mechanistic worldview. --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:25, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Proposed edit:

As several have mentioned before, this article reads as seriously out of date scientifically for it's lack of reference to retrocausality as proposed by QM through the delayed choice quantum eraser experiment analysis. (True temporal nonlinearity would of course render the concept of precognition moot, but it would address the phenomena as recorded throughout history.) This article also reads like someone's baby, and I fully expect them to come roaring out of their cave at the scent of an edit. So, I propose the baby is allowed to remain intact, with simply an added section which acknowledges contemporary scientific experiments, results, and discussion. I'll just leave this here for a bit before attempting an edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Altairah (talk • contribs) 08:13, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

The problem here is to find a suitable source for such treatment. The prevailing view is that QM does not enable information to be transferred via such phenomena. To suggest here that any given quantum phenomenon does in fact support the precognition hypothesis would be original research on our part - unless we can find a reliable scientific source which makes that claim. The claim doesn't have to be true, but its existence does need to be verifiably significant, i.e. more than just a sensationalist remark by some journalist. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:00, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

steelpillow Hello, I'd like to chime in here. There is a citation to 'Discover Magazine' which carries the article about QM which discusses the implications of retrocausation which I've just read. There are clearly unsolved questions in physics that these experiments bring up. So I want to suggest an edit to the sentence that follows the citation; "quantum weirdness' should be deleted. Perhaps quote parts of the referenced text for example:

"Tollaksen sums up this confounding argument with one of his favorite quotes, from the ancient Jewish sage Rabbi Akiva: “All is foreseen; but freedom of choice is given.” Or as Tollaksen puts it, “I can have my cake and eat it too.” He laughs."

Or more simply:

"“The future can only affect the present if there is room to write its influence off as a mistake,” Aharonov says."

I think if you look at this field and read what is going on closely, what they are actually saying is that information IS being transferred 'backwards in time' but in any single situation you cannot see it clearly. This was the purpose of the weak measurement series. I'll come back and take this on at some, ahem, future juncture. Thelisteninghand (talk) 22:52, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Well, here we are seven years after the creation of this discussion. In that time, quantum retrocausality has continued to gain scientific traction; see for example Adam Becker; "Blast from the Future", New Scientist, 17 February 2018, pp.28-31 (except, this online version has a slightly different title). While mainstream science has done little if anything to apply it to psychic phenomena such as precognition, fringe writers such as Eric Wargo (Time Loops, Anomalist, 2018) have increasingly tried to fill that gap. There is now a verifiable body of literature on the implications of retrocausality for precognition, but unlike Becker's article it is not mainstream science. How should Wikipedia address this? My working assumption is that we should, as a responsible encyclopedia, acknowledge the notability of the literature as a social phenomenon, while maintaining a sceptical stance on its scientific truth. That's a tightrope I have sadly little time to walk. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 08:39, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree with that approach and I'll have a look at the Becker article and see what else I can find. The one liner on QM is clearly insufficient now. I avoid Wargo personally but may be worth citing as social phenomenon. This is also useful recent thinking on time https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/301/301539/the-order-of-time/9780141984964.html Thelisteninghand (talk) 16:18, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Dare I suggest that the recent edit-and-revert illustrates the difficulty of tightrope-walking. A book such as Wargo's can not really be mentioned in the article, except insofar as it might be usefully discussed in other reliable sources. Dunne's book is one of very few which pass that test. JB Priestley's Man and Time might be another, if one needed support for something he discusses. Also, such mention would most likely fall into the cultural section rather than anything to do with arguments of fact. Does Rovelli The Order of Time (per the above "useful" link) mention precognition? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 21:57, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I won't be continuing. I am easily put off. Leave the article in 1990s where only special people have such 'psychic' powers. But everyone knows WP not a reliable source. Thelisteninghand (talk) 15:21, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Neither in the 1990s nor anytime else has there been a scientific consensus that n people can do this with n > 0. --Hob Gadling (talk) 17:58, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Nevertheless there is something of a resurgence of it in popular literature and more serious literary studies these days: I can cite you forty or so references to Dunne alone in the last 10 years, some in mainstream publications (some of those are already cited here). It would be useful to capture a little more of that, though obviously in a wider context than Dunne. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:07, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Mainstream of what? Literary studies? How is that relevant? --Hob Gadling (talk) 19:42, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Checkout the subsection on Literary reference, especially the cites. If that doesn't help answer your question, then I can't help you either. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 20:12, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

That is the fluff-and-fantasy section. It says nothing about whether only special people have such 'psychic' powers, just about how the concept is treated in fiction. --Hob Gadling (talk) 21:40, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Well spotted, dear boy. You asked about the literary aspect so I answered about the literary aspect. Now, had you asked about the scientific (or otherwise) aspect, might I just conceivably have answered about that? You appear to be trying to imagine up enemies from within your own team, may I recommend that you focus instead on improving the article (which I see you have done something about, thank you). Meanwhile, I think we can be done with this absurd conversation. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:52, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Well, maybe you should not have changed the subject from lack of reference to retrocausality as proposed by QM and later only special people have such 'psychic' powers to something else without clearly saying so, but while making it sound like a contradiction ("Nevertheless"). Talking about "mainstream publications" is misleading when the subject of the article is precognition and not precognition in fiction. --Hob Gadling (talk) 13:46, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Popular culture

Does this subsection really add anything to the subject? Even if it were referenced, what does an arbitrary collection of plot lines have to offer the reader of an encyclopedia? Unless independent RS do establish the significance of any examples (as they do for some literary occurrences), I'd suggest it be deleted. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 10:47, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree, it's somewhat random. Delete. Thelisteninghand (talk) 15:46, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I suggest that a new heading replaces it "Precognition in Different Cultures". My searches have led me to stumble on New World Encyclopedia - wiki - quite different and broader take on the subject.Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:29, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

The pic

Saw the request so found this here https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Казимир_Малевич_—_Важке_передчуття.jpg Good image I think with great title for the article. The image upload is a nightmare -if anyone can sort out the Russian and put the details in I'd be very grateful. Thelisteninghand (talk) 01:12, 26 January 2022 (UTC) Thanks for that, the title appears to have changed -should I alter it or is there a reason - lost in translation? It's all looking better and yes I know Bohm but not that paper, will have a look.Thelisteninghand (talk) 15:57, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

I just copy-pasted the Russian into Google Translate and then copyedited it for Wikipedia. Has the meaning changed in (mis)translation? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:41, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Ok - I've added the title.Thelisteninghand (talk) 16:47, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

"Presentiment" is not used in the main article and is not the same thing as precognition, it is merely an uncomfortable feeling that something bad will happen. If it is the accurate translation (synonyms include "premonition", "foreboding" and "apprehension"), then the image is not suitable here after all. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:20, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes true but I think the terms are broadly similar - it's just a title of a painting and specifically 'complex presentiment'. I read your objection in the cn and thought 'presentiment' should be included, 'future-vision' deleted. Just an opinion really - I like the painting which has a good visual impact. I've added to the lead to cite Bohm's ideas from RSS (I hope).Thelisteninghand (talk) 17:39, 26 January 2022 (UTC) NB Presentiment redirects here, I rest my case!Thelisteninghand (talk) 17:42, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

My several English dictionaries disagree profoundly with you. There is every difference between a vague feeling and a precise prevision. I see no chance of bridging that gap. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:49, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

I found the image under a wiki search for images under the term precognition that's all. I prefer it to a portrait of Nostradamus. As wiki directs presentiment here that's two wiki reasons. I understand your objection on the other hand. I'd argue it should really rest on visual impact. A clock might be an alternative? The article is 'looking good' and it helps. CheersThelisteninghand (talk) 22:16, 26 January 2022 (UTC)