User talk:Bsenim
New article
[edit]Hello! I see you are a new editor, and there are a couple of things you need to know. First (simple), every time you add a comment to a talk page, you need to "sign" it: simply put four tildes ~~~~ at the end.
Secondly, Wikipedia is not for publishing your own ideas, regardless of whether they are true, and it looks as though this is your own idea. Unless you can show people talking about a circle of seventh chords somewhere published, the article will almost certainly be deleted. (I hope you keep copies of stuff you write somewhere for your own reference.) Hope this helps! Imaginatorium (talk) 15:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- fair enough, but why not allow wikipedia to introduce undiscovered ideas? Seems like many missed opportunities for helping "truths" be discovered more efficiently. If a post on Twitter gets enough retweets, will this constitute as being published? Or do I have to get an article published to have my idea entered into wikipedia? Bsenim (talk) 15:59, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- I am taking the liberty of copying our conversation from the article page, because it will almost certainly soon disappear. I'm not sure if it is WP:LEGAL to move someone else's comment, so if you object, please just delete it. But it seems more constructive to continue here... Imaginatorium (talk) 16:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- Hi there! The important thing to remember here is what Wikipedia is (an encyclopedia) and what it is not (see WP:5P1). Because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, it is not the place to publish original research (see WP:NOR). Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 00:44, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- It appears to me that this "topic" is entirely "original research". The initial claim that: "The Circle of fifths is closely related to all the Major and minor 7th chords." has no support, and seems to be vacuous. The sequence of notes that you show consists of alternating steps of 4 and 3 semitones; 4+3 = 7, a perfect fifth, so all this means is that you have added thirds in the middle of each fifth of the cycle of fifths. The problem is basically the strong law of small numbers, in this case 12. Imaginatorium (talk) 16:11, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- In regard to the field of number theory, I agree with describing my circle as vacuous. But if that is true, then the circle of fifths is also vacuous. The reason the circle of fifths is even an article or talking point worthy of having a wikipedia page is due to the usefulness of visualizing the fifths as a drawing. 4+3=7 is not groundbreaking in any context, but having a single synthetic scale or sequence of notes that one can practice is useful in the same way visualizing the fifths on a circle is useful. Bsenim (talk) 16:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, this sort of indicates the problem. If WP were completely open-ended, anyone could add anything they thought relevant, it would be a lot worse than it is now (where there are problems enough). How to decide whether something is worthy/useful? WP has decided that the "notability" criterion means that it must have already been discovered and talked about in publications. We (two) can't easily agree whether your scale is helpful, because "helpful" is just too subjective. I'm quite happy to argue a bit though. The circle of fifths is significant, because any TET system must provide a good approximation to the perfect fifth, which is a frequency ratio of 2:3, and this approximation must also be a divisor of a number of octaves, i.e. a power of 2. So it is all about finding solutions to the approximation 2a ≈ 3b. 12TET gives the approximation a=19, b=12. And this can conveniently be played on a piano keyboard. Adding extra notes in between doesn't obviously explain anything, and the problem is that you could add any combination of extra notes; for example simply the diatonic scale, so on the piano you just play a major scale inside each fifth. I don't think you have justified your interpolation as being significantly more useful or interesting than any other. Imaginatorium (talk) 16:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- Are you a musician? Bsenim (talk) 16:55, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- You definitely have a strong background in math. I have an engineering background, so I can appreciate your analysis. I asked if you were a musician because I think you are missing the value in practicing a single synthetic scale on a musical instrument. Muscle memory is difficult to achieve for all the modes, so having a single 24 note sequence that contains all the major and minor 7th chords is very useful in jazz. Bsenim (talk) 17:02, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- I play the piano, though sadly not jazz... I understand the idea of internalising chords and sequences on the keyboard, so that for examply you can immediately play an ascending sequence of diminished sevenths. I also think that grasping the relation to the cyclic group of order 12 makes it easier to answer questions like "how many different dim7 chords are there?" I cannot see that in practice anyone would use the whole 3-4 semitone sequence for practice. Anyway, it turns out the sequence is already in the circle of thirds article, which has its own (big) problems. Imaginatorium (talk) 12:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Your comment "I cannot see that in practice anyone would use the whole 3-4 semitone sequence for practice." is premature. Only time will tell if this pattern is useful for helping jazz students master major and minor 7th chords. BTW, major and minor 7th and major and minor triads are foundational to modern music like jazz, blues and progressive rock. Also, I'm the one who added many indisputable facts about the circle of thirds to the page. Bsenim (talk) 12:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Another thing, I'm not sure why you bring up diminished chords. The semitone spacing of a dim7 chord is 3-3-4. So this 7th chord does not exist in the circle of thirds. Bsenim (talk) 12:54, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Never mind, I get your point that you feel it's easier to remember that there will be 12 chords of any type. Please disregard my last question. Bsenim (talk) 12:59, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- I play the piano, though sadly not jazz... I understand the idea of internalising chords and sequences on the keyboard, so that for examply you can immediately play an ascending sequence of diminished sevenths. I also think that grasping the relation to the cyclic group of order 12 makes it easier to answer questions like "how many different dim7 chords are there?" I cannot see that in practice anyone would use the whole 3-4 semitone sequence for practice. Anyway, it turns out the sequence is already in the circle of thirds article, which has its own (big) problems. Imaginatorium (talk) 12:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, this sort of indicates the problem. If WP were completely open-ended, anyone could add anything they thought relevant, it would be a lot worse than it is now (where there are problems enough). How to decide whether something is worthy/useful? WP has decided that the "notability" criterion means that it must have already been discovered and talked about in publications. We (two) can't easily agree whether your scale is helpful, because "helpful" is just too subjective. I'm quite happy to argue a bit though. The circle of fifths is significant, because any TET system must provide a good approximation to the perfect fifth, which is a frequency ratio of 2:3, and this approximation must also be a divisor of a number of octaves, i.e. a power of 2. So it is all about finding solutions to the approximation 2a ≈ 3b. 12TET gives the approximation a=19, b=12. And this can conveniently be played on a piano keyboard. Adding extra notes in between doesn't obviously explain anything, and the problem is that you could add any combination of extra notes; for example simply the diatonic scale, so on the piano you just play a major scale inside each fifth. I don't think you have justified your interpolation as being significantly more useful or interesting than any other. Imaginatorium (talk) 16:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
- In regard to the field of number theory, I agree with describing my circle as vacuous. But if that is true, then the circle of fifths is also vacuous. The reason the circle of fifths is even an article or talking point worthy of having a wikipedia page is due to the usefulness of visualizing the fifths as a drawing. 4+3=7 is not groundbreaking in any context, but having a single synthetic scale or sequence of notes that one can practice is useful in the same way visualizing the fifths on a circle is useful. Bsenim (talk) 16:20, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Speedy deletion nomination of Circle of major and minor 7th chords
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A tag has been placed on Circle of major and minor 7th chords requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A11 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about something invented/coined/discovered by the article's creator or someone they know personally, and it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time.
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