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This page contains discussions that have been archived from Village pump (proposals). Please do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to revive any of these discussions, either start a new thread or use the talk page associated with that topic.

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Photographs by Peter Klashorst

Back in 2023 I unsuccessfully nominated a group of nude photographs by Peter Klashorst for deletion on Commons. I was concerned that the people depicted might not have been of age or consented to publication. Klashorst described himself as a "painting sex-tourist"[1] because he would travel to third-world countries to have sex with women in brothels, and also paint pictures of them[2][3]. On his Flickr account, he posted various nude photographs of African and Asian women, some of which appear to have been taken without the subjects' knowledge. Over the years, other Commons contributors have raised concerns about the Klashorst photographs (e.g. [4][5][6]).

I noticed recently that several of the Klashorst images had disappeared from Commons but the deletions hadn't been logged. I believe this happens when the WMF takes an office action to remove files. I don't know for sure whether that's the case, or why only a small number of the photographs were removed this way.

My proposal is that we stop using nude or explicit photographs by Klashorst in all namespaces of the English Wikipedia. This would affect about thirty pages, including high-traffic anatomy articles such as Buttocks and Vulva. gnu57 18:29, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

@Genericusername57: This seems as if it's essentially a request for a community sanction, and thus probably belongs better on the administrators' noticeboard. Please tell me if I am mistaken. JJPMaster (she/they) 23:12, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
@JJPMaster: I am fine with moving the discussion elsewhere, if you think it more suitable. gnu57 02:16, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
@Genericusername57: I disagree with JJPMaster in that this seems to be the right venue, but I also disagree with your proposal. Klashorst might have been a sleazeball, yes, but the images at the two listed articles do not show recognizable subjects, nor do they resemble “creepshots”, nor is there evidence they’re underage. If you object to his images you can nominate them on Commons. Your ‘23 mass nomination failed because it was extremely indiscriminate (i.e. it included a self portrait of the artist). Dronebogus (talk) 00:30, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
@Dronebogus: According to User:Lar, Commons users repeatedly contacted Klashorst, asking him to provide proof of age and consent for his models, but he did not do so. I am planning on renominating the photographs on Commons, and I think removing them from enwiki first will help avoid spurious c:COM:INUSE arguments. The self-portrait you are referring to also included another naked person. gnu57 02:16, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
@Genericusername57: replacing the ones at vulva and buttocks wouldn’t be difficult; the first article arguably violates WP:ETHNICGALLERY and conflicts with human penis only showing a single image anyway. However I think it’s best if you went to those actual articles and discussed removing them. I don’t know what other pages use his images besides his own article but they should be dealt with separately. If you want to discuss banning his photos from Wikimedia in general that’s best discussed at Commons. In all cases my personal view is that regardless of whether they actually run afoul of any laws purging creepy, exploitative pornography of third-world women is no great loss. Dronebogus (talk) 01:16, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
I have to confess that I do not remember the details of the attempts to clarify things with Peter. If this turns out to be something upon which this decision might turn, I will try to do more research. But I’m afraid it’s lost in the mists of time. ++Lar: t/c 01:25, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Note also that further attempts to clarify matters directly with Peter will not be possible, as he is now deceased. ++Lar: t/c 15:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Several issues here. First, if the files are illegal, that's a matter for Commons as they should be deleted. On the enwiki side of things, if there's doubt about legality, Commons has plenty of other photos that can be used instead. Just replace the photos. The second issue is exploitation. Commons does have commons:COM:DIGNITY which could apply, and depending on the country in which the photo was taken there may be stricter laws for publication vs. capture, but it's a hard sell to delete things on Commons if it seems like the person in the photo consented (with or without payment). The problem with removing files that may be tainted by exploitation is we'd presumably have to remove basically all images of all people who were imprisoned, enslaved, colonized, or vulnerable at the time of the photo/painting/drawing. It becomes a balance where we consider the context of the image (the specifics of when/where/how it was taken), whether the subject is still alive (probably relevant here), and encyclopedic importance. I'd be inclined to agree with some above that there aren't many photos here that couldn't be replaced with something else from Commons, but I don't think you'll find support for a formalized ban. Here's a question: what happens when you just try to replace them. As long as the photo you're replacing it with is high quality and just as relevant to the article, I don't think you'd face many challenges? — Rhododendrites talk \\ 16:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Category:Current sports events

I would like to propose that sports articles should be left in the Category:Current sports events for 48 hours after these events have finished. I'm sure many Wikipedia sports fans (including me) open CAT:CSE first and then click on a sporting event in that list. And we would like to do so in the coming days after the event ends to see the final standings and results.

Currently, this category is being removed from articles too early, sometimes even before the event ends. Just like yesterday. AnishaShar, what do you say about that?

So I would like to ask you to consider my proposal. Or, if you have a better suggestion, please comment. Thanks, Maiō T. (talk) 16:25, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for bringing up this point. I agree that leaving articles in the Category:Current sports events for a short grace period after the event concludes—such as 48 hours—would benefit readers who want to catch up on the final standings and outcomes. AnishaShar (talk) 18:19, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable on its face. Gatoclass (talk) 23:24, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
How would this be policed though? Usually that category is populated by the {{current sport event}} template, which every user is going to want to remove immediately after it finishes. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:51, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
@Lee Vilenski: First of all, the Category:Current sports events has nothing to do with the Template:Current sport; articles are added to that category in the usual way.
You ask how it would be policed. Simply, we will teach editors to do it that way – to leave an article in that category for another 48 hours. AnishaShar have already expressed their opinion above. WL Pro for life is also known for removing 'CAT:CSE's from articles. I think we could put some kind of notice in that category so other editors can notice it. We could set up a vote here. Maybe someone else will have a better idea. Maiō T. (talk) 20:25, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Would it not be more suitable for a "recently completed sports event" category. It's pretty inaccurate to say it's current when the event finished over a day ago. Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 21:03, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Okay Lee, that's also a good idea. We have these two sports event categories:

I don't have any objection to a Recent sports events category being added, but personally, if I want to see results of recent sports events, I would be more likely to go to Category:December 2024 sports events, which should include all recent events. Edin75 (talk) 23:30, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Did this get the go-ahead then? I see a comment has been added to the category, and my most recent edit was reverted when I removed the category after an event finished. I didn't see any further discussion after my last comment. Edin75 (talk) 09:37, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Change page titles/names using "LGBTQ" to "LGBTQ+"

Please see my reasoning at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies#LGBTQ to LGBTQ+ (and please post your thoughts there). It was proposed that I use this page to escalate this matter, as seen on the linked talk page. Helper201 (talk) 20:42, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Snowclose - As mentioned in that discussion, there was a decision on this topic not long ago based on ngram data which lead to the LGBT -> LGBTQ rename. It hasn't been long enough for consensus to substantially change, and the ngram dataset hasn't been updated since that previous proposal. BugGhost 🦗👻 10:00, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Agree with BugGhost; I also personally think this topic area (LGBTetc. acronyms) can lean uncomfortably close to WP:GREATWRONGS and WP:TOOSOON. People who by contemporary westernized standards would not be considered “hetero-typical” or “cis-typical” have always existed; the current terminology around them is extremely young. Dronebogus (talk) 14:05, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

User-generated conflict maps

In a number of articles we have (or had) user-generated conflict maps. I think the mains ones at the moment are Syrian civil war and Russian invasion of Ukraine. The war in Afghanistan had one until it was removed as poorly-sourced in early 2021. As you can see from a brief review of Talk:Syrian civil war the map has become quite controversial there too.

My personal position is that sourcing conflict maps entirely from reports of occupation by one side or another of individual towns at various times, typically from Twitter accounts of dubious reliability, to produce a map of the current situation in an entire country (which is the process described here), is a WP:SYNTH/WP:OR. I also don't see liveuamap.com as necessarily being a highly reliable source either since it basically is an WP:SPS/Wiki-style user-generated source, and when it was discussed at RSN editors there generally agreed with that. I can understand it if a reliable source produces a map that we can use, but that isn't what's happening here.

Part of the reason this flies under the radar on Wikipedia is it ultimately isn't information hosted on EN WP but instead on Commons, where reliable sourcing etc. is not a requirement. However, it is being used on Wikipedia to present information to users and therefore should fall within our PAGs.

I think these maps should be deprecated unless they can be shown to be sourced entirely to a reliable source, and not assembled out of individual reports including unreliable WP:SPS sources. FOARP (talk) 16:57, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

A lot of the maps seem like they run into SYNTH issues because if they're based on single sources they're likely running into copyright issue as derivative works. I would agree though that if an image does not have clear sourcing it shouldn't be used as running into primary/synth issues. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 17:09, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
Though simple information isn't copyrightable, if it's sufficiently visually similar I suppose that might constitute a copyvio. JayCubby 02:32, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
I agree these violate OR and at least the spirit of NOTNEWS and should be deprecated. I remember during the Wagner rebellion we had to fix one that incorrectly depicted Wagner as controlling a swath of Russia. Levivich (talk) 05:47, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
Oppose: First off, I'd like to state my bias as a bit of a map geek. I've followed the conflict maps closely for years.
I think the premise of this question is flawed. Some maps may be poorly sourced, but that doesn't mean all of them are. The updates to the Syrian, Ukraine, and Burma conflicts maps are sourced to third parties. So that resolves the OR issue.
The sources largely agree with each other, which makes SYNTH irrelevant. Occasionally one source may be ahead of another by a few hours (e.g., LiveUaMap vs. ISW), but they're almost entirely in lock step.
I think this proposal throws out the baby with the bathwater. One bad map doesn't mean we stop using maps; it means we stop using bad maps.
You may not like the fact that these sources sometimes use OSI (open-source intelligence). Unfortunately, that is the nature of conflict in a zone where the press isn't allowed. Any information you get from the AP or the US government is likely to rely on the same sources.
Do they make mistakes? Probably; but so do all historical sources. And these maps have the advantage that the Commons community continuously reviews changes made by other users. Much in the same way that Wikipedia is often more accurate than historical encyclopedias, I believe crowdsourcing may make these maps more accurate than historical ones.
I think deprecating these maps would leave the reader at a loss (pictures speak a 1,000 words and all that). Does it get a border crossing wrong here or there? Yes, but the knowledge is largely correct.
It would be an absolute shame to lose access to this knowledge. Magog the Ogre (t • c) 22:59, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
@Magog the Ogre WP:ITSUSEFUL is frowned upon as an argument for good reason. Beyond that: 1) the fact that these are based on fragmentary data is strangely not mentioned at all (Syrian civil war says 'Military situation as of December 18, 2024 at 2:00pm ET' which suggests that it's quite authoritative and should be trusted; the fact that it's based off the ISW is not disclosed.) 2) I'm not seeing where all the information is coming from the ISW. The ISW's map only covers territory, stuff like bridges, dams, "strategic hills" and the like are not present on the ISW map[7]. Where is that info coming from? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 23:10, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
The Commons Syria map uses both the ISW and Liveuamap. The two are largely in agreement, with Liveuamap being more precise but using less reliable sources. If you have an issue with using Liveuamap as a source, fine, bring it up on the talk pages where it's used, or on the Commons talk page itself. But banning any any map of a conflict is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. The Ukraine map is largely based on ISW-verifiable information.
With regards to actual locations like bridges, I'm against banning Commons users from augmenting maps with easily verifiable landmarks. That definition of SYN is broad to the point of meaningless, as it would apply to any user-generated content that uses more than one source. Magog the Ogre (t • c) 23:50, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
WP:ITSUSEFUL is a perfectly valid argument in some circumstances, like this one. Wikimedia Commons exists to hold images that are useful for the encyclopedia. The only reason to keep an image is if it's useful for articles. (I feel like the whole "Arguments to avoid" essay needs to be rewritten, because almost every argument on that list is valid in some contexts but not others.) – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 18:45, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Weak Oppose I've been updating the Ukraine map since May 2022, so I hope my input is helpful. While I agree that some of the sources currently being used to update these maps may be dubious in nature, that has not always been the case. In the past, particularly for the Syria map, these maps have been considered among the most accurate online due to their quality sourcing. It used to be that a source was required for each town if it was to be displayed on these maps, but more recently, people have just accepted taking sources like LivaUAMap and the ISW and copying them exactly. Personally, I think we should keep the maps but change how they are sourced. I think that going back to the old system of requiring a reliable source for each town would clear up most of the issues that you are referring to, though it would probably mean that the maps would be less detailed than they currently are now. Physeters✉ 07:23, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose The campaign maps are one of our absolute best features. The Syrian campaign map in particular was very accurate for much of the war. Having a high quality SVG of an entire country like that is awesome, and there really isn't anything else like it out there, which is why it provides such value to our readers. I think we have to recognize of our course that they're not 100% accurate, due to the fog of war. I wouldn't mind if we created subpages about the maps? Like, with a list of sources and their dates, designed to be reader facing, so that our readers could verify the control of specific towns for themselves. But getting rid of the maps altogether is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 23:33, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose, but I do think we need to tighten up the verifiability standards, as @CaptainEek suggests in their spot-on comment :) Maps need to have citations, just like articles do, so readers can verify how reliable the information is. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 18:40, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
  • We usually expect articles to use more than one source to help with NPOV. Relaxing that standard for maps does not sound like a particularly good idea. —Kusma (talk) 19:15, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I wished Wikipedia supported wallpapers in pages...

It would be even more awesome if we could change the wallpaper of pages in Wikipedia. But the fonts' colors could change to adapt to the wallpaper. The button for that might look like this: Change wallpaper Gnu779 (talk) 11:02, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I think we already tried this. It was called Myspace ;) —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 11:51, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
See Help:User style for information on creating your own stylesheet. isaacl (talk) 18:03, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
@Gnu779: You have successfully nerd-sniped me, so I’m gonna work on a user script for this. JJPMaster (she/they) 22:54, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Heh heh, great idea! Gnu779 (talk) 10:33, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Why does the account go out?

Moved to Wikipedia:Village pump (technical) § Why does the account go out?
 – Aaron Liu (talk) 00:29, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

discussion page for reverted articles not talking page on article

If you are making edits with sources an individual disagrees but just reverts with can not be bothered to read sources it would be nice to have somewhere to have a further discussion on the article that isn't the talk page. If you ask for information on the individuals talk page and it's not reply to. You add the information on the articles talk page and ask for a consensus but it's not replied to as it's not looked at a lot. It would be nice for there to be somewhere to discuss the article. I have been asking where to go if articles are being stonewalled. There doesn't seem to be somewhere to bring up the behaviour Sharnadd (talk) 07:15, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

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