Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Archaeology

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This page has been mentioned by a media organization:

Rebecca Onion (November 18, 2022). "The Ancient Absurdities of Ancient Apocalypse". Slate (magazine). Retrieved April 5, 2023. Oddly enough—and I know journalists might bristle at what I say—Wikipedia is the very best source. It's maintained by nerds, and archaeology Wikipedia is maintained by archaeology nerds, and the articles on it are good! I have a feeling they'll get even better because of this series, because people will want to make sure the information is in there for viewers who may be Googling it.

Saltovo-Mayaki

u7a4 did not found in Belgorod Oblast like the editor is saying. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltovo-Mayaki

A genetic study published in Nature in May 2018 examined three males of the Saltovo-Mayaki culture buried in Belgorod Oblast, Russia between ca. 700 AD and 900 AD.[3] The sample of Y-DNA extracted belonged to haplogroup R1.[4] The three samples of mtDNA extracted belonged to the haplogroups I, J1b4 and #Haplogroup U7|U7a4.[5]

The mtDNA that have been extracted from Belgorod Oblast belonged to haplogroups I (i4a) and D4m2 and not U7'U7a4.

Haplogroup mtDNA U5 been found among Saltovo-Mayaki but not in Belgorod Oblast.

Good article reassessment for Burney Relief

Burney Relief has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 16:48, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good article reassessment for Ahmad Hasan Dani

Ahmad Hasan Dani has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 02:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bob Hobman

I just created a stub for Bob Hobman, a sailor who has made a number of voyages on recreations of prehistoric boats. Any help with expansion would be appreciated! Thriley (talk) 20:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Katherine Routledge

Hello, I am a French speaker and have worked on Katherine Routledge's article on the French Wikipedia. I don't have a strong enough command of English to consider translating it into English myself. I'm leaving this message because I'm also surprised by the article's importance ranking within the project.

Considering that Katherine Routledge led the first scientific expedition to Easter Island, she is, by definition, a pioneer. But more than that, her research serves as a foundation for the entire field of subsequent archaeological study—even to this day, due to the rediscovery of multiple documents since the 1970s. This is asserted by Jo Anne Van Tilburg and various academics who have critiqued her book Nanoyo88 (talk) 07:06, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Am I right in thinking Tartessos needs to be cleaned up to remove media sources?

I just removed one on that basis, we should have peer reviewed sources, especially as the media sources may have been challenged. Doug Weller talk 14:28, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Event on 19 November with the Archaeology Data Service

Wikimedia UK and the ADS are collaborating to run an online editathon next week. The aim is to add DOIs to references where there are PDFs in the ADS. There is a registration page on Eventbrite: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/help-the-ads-improve-dois-on-wikipedia-tickets-1075492820979

Project members are very welcome to join us - it will begin with a brisk how to edit section but the main focus will be on adding DOIs.

But importantly I'd like to ask that if you know archaeologists or enthusiasts who might be curious about Wikipedia please let them know about the event. I think this should be a low-barrier way to get started and I hope that folks will leave the session feeling that they have helped Wikipedia's readers and the ADS by making the resources easier to find. Richard Nevell (WMUK) (talk) 18:24, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Richard Nevell and Richard Nevell (WMUK): Sounds like a great event, unfortunately I couldn't make it but I'd love to if you do something similar again. How did it go? – Joe (talk) 08:38, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was a group of eight of us and we made some good progress. The outreach dashboard hasn't caught up, but I think we added more than 100 DOIs. It mostly focused on journals hosted by the ADS as those are most commonly used on Wikipedia out of their various datasets. As the DOIs link to the ADS and their scans, it's been making the references more accessible.

I'm keen to run it again and the ADS are open to it time permitting. There might even be trowel-shaped USB sticks up for grabs! Richard Nevell (WMUK) (talk) 09:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

50 unreferenced archaeology articles

Wikipedia:WikiProject Unreferenced articles is currently holding a backlog drive, as part of which I'm trying to work through unreferenced archaeology articles. There are only about fifty left – would be great if we could get rid of them all by the end of the month! – Joe (talk) 08:39, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have time for much, but I was at least able to give mortarium a once over. Richard Nevell (talk) 21:16, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dating archaeological sites

Ran across something today that annoyed me. The cited source says, The site is believed to have had its pri[n]cipal occupation between AD 1250 and 1550.[1] That became The site was occupied between 1250 and 1550, ... in the Bottle Creek Indian Mounds article. And today the article was moved from Category:Populated places established in the 13th century to Category:Populated places established in 1250 and from Category:Populated places disestablished in the 16th century to Category:Populated places disestablished in 1550, which I believe is much too specific for dating an archaeological site. I have reverted those changes, and also removed the existing Category:1250 establishments and Category:1550 disestablishments. I understand that editors in good faith see dates in an article and want to brings categories into line with those dates, but that can be a problem if they do not understand that dates for archaeological sites are almost always approximate and often very broad estimates. I realize this is not one of the big problems in WP, but, as I said, it annoyed me, so I wanted to vent. Donald Albury 16:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Could somebody look at Bottle Creek Indian Mounds and offer an opinion on the dates of establishment and disestablishment for the site? - Donald Albury 00:58, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Inscriptions and Herostones" articles

I've noticed a pattern of articles with titles ending in "Inscriptions and Herostones" or "Inscriptions & Herostones". I've copyedited and fixed bare URLs on a couple, but now that I've discovered just how many there are I believe some larger effort may need to be put towards them. They all follow a similar format. They need copyediting, often rely on one source. The articles should at least all follow the same naming convention, which I am dealing with now (shortening, lowercasing letters which should be, and splitting "hero stone" into to words). I didn't know where to ask because there's not one single talk page for such a group. Here's an example: Gulakamale (Bengaluru) Inscriptions and Herostones. I've been told to post this here (from the Wikipedia:Help desk, and it may be good to post it to Talk:Kannada inscriptions or Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics as well. Tolozen (talk) 04:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To update: I moved each article to one ending in "inscriptions and hero stones", but other than that have left them unchanged. Tolozen (talk) 09:15, 26 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Modifying all titles to ensure consistency is fine, but removing (Bengaluru) from the title causes ambiguity in locating the place. The talk page suited for this is discussion is Talk:Inscription Stones of Bengaluru Udaya Kumar P L Pluday (talk) 03:30, 27 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I checked beforehand, I don't think there's anything similar in any similarly named places. I don't think it will cause any ambiguity. Tolozen (talk) 05:32, 1 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK. There are multiple places with these names, but there's no ambiguity currently because no wiki articles exist about the others. If that changes, we can add (Bengaluru) to the title to avoid confusion. Udaya Kumar P L Pluday (talk) 04:07, 8 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My old pseud-archaeology website

Very out of date, might still be of some use. [2] On wayback so it will be around when I'm not. Doug Weller talk 16:38, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bookmarked. Donald Albury 18:41, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Date for the diary: 11 February 2025 online editing with the Archaeology Data Service

Last month, the Archaeology Data Service and Wikimedia UK worked together on an event adding DOIs to Wikipedia. The DOIs link back to the ADS website where readers (and editors) can freely access PDFs of publications. Their collection includes county journals, data from research projects, and grey literature reports. We had a good result with DOIs added to more than 200 articles.

We've having another go in 2025. So if you're interested you can register on Eventbrite. All are welcome! (Joe, I'm pinging you in case the date works for you). I'll be tinkering with the worklists that we were using to offer a few more options.

In the meantime, I hope you all have a peaceful end to 2024. Richard Nevell (WMUK) (talk) 16:25, 20 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to make it! Lajmmoore (talk) 07:17, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

20% women's biographies on English Wikipedia

Hello friends, if you follow Wikiproject Women in Red you might have seen that the proportion of women's biographies on English Wikipedia just tipped over 20% and it's a fatastic achievement for everyone!!! I'd like to do a post on Diff (the Wikimedia Foundation's blog) about it and would love to add perspectives from this project (as well as others) - a draft is here, please please add to it. If you can edit it before, I'm hoping to post something 18:00 UTC on 21 Dec Lajmmoore (talk) 07:48, 21 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What do people think of using Anton Wilhelm Brøgger as a source for Vinland?

See Talk:Norse colonization of North America#Attempting to remove a false statement. and the mistitled thread below that. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 17:37, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He seems to be a relatively minor scholar, cited by few, and his work iz quite dated. It might be OK to bundle him with more recent supporting sources to demonstrate a set of scientific opinions but we should avoid undue weight. Simonm223 (talk) 17:43, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say it's fair to say he was outstanding in his day, and deserves respect today too.

Here is a short list of some of his books and papers... Rockawaypoint (talk) 17:51, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Brogger and his career are discussed here...

"Freedom Loving Northerners: Norwegian Independence As Narrated in Three National Museums"

Lill Eilertsen

Published 2012

"...Brøgger Senior, University Rector from 1907 – 1911, had befriended Fridtjof Nansen both personally and disciplinarily (Hestmark 1999). During childhood, Anton Wilhelm followed his father in his research fields, developing interest and understanding of the collected material, yet decided early that he wanted to become an archaeologist. He entered the discipline of archaeology through a dissertation establishing a profound basis for later studies of the Norwegian Stone Age, and managed Stavanger Museum from 1909 to 1913. Brøgger’s organizational skills were unquestionable as he managed to increase Oldsaksamlingen’s staff from four to eleven, as well as boosting its general resources, and not least to finalize the museum project on Bygdøy, which had been halted (Grieg 1952; Bergstøl & al. 2004).... Wishing to become rector of the university like his father, he became a notable player in the institutional politics of the discipline and the energetic manager also found time for general politics. He served as deputy representative to the Parliament of Norway during the term 1928– 1930, and was chairman of the Liberal Left Party from 1930 to 1931, as well as secretary-general of the Norwegian Archaeological Society (Norsk Arkeologisk Selskap), among other things." Rockawaypoint (talk) 18:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Almost none of that is relevant to due weight on his interpretation of Vinland related sagas. Simonm223 (talk) 19:45, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What would prefer to see from him? He wrote an entire book on Vinland in 1937 in Norwegian. The book was translated into German ca. 1939. Rockawaypoint (talk) 19:55, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1937 is before any work done by the Ingstats or Patricia Sutherland. It seems a pretty big deal that the book is before the archaeological evidence was available. Rjjiii (ii) (talk) 23:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a review of Brogger's 1937 Vinland study. Someone above has said he "... seems to be a relatively minor scholar." That is not the case at all... he was highly respected.

Review: [Untitled] on JSTOR Rockawaypoint (talk) 00:34, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources using the book as a reference Maybe , but see Wikipedia:Reliable sources and undue weight “ Age of the source and rate of change of the subject—Where a subject has evolved or changed over time a long standing source may not be accurate with respect to the current situation. To interpret utility one must appreciate how the subject has changed and has that change impacted any of the salient points of the source information. Historical or out of date sources may be used to demonstrate evolution of the subject but should be treated with caution where used to illustrate the subject. Should no newer sources be available it is reaonable to caveat use of sources with an indication of the age and the resulting reduction in reliability.”

Your source is almost a century old. Doug Weller talk 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Terrific, let's use Anton W. Brogger to, "...demonstrate evolution of the subject..." Fairly and accurately presenting the subject's current situation is of course the key goal.

Here is another source you may be less opposed to. This quote from Hodding Carter should be added to anything on Wikipedia touching on Vinland. "Like most historians, I am convinced that L'Anse aux Meadows is not Vinland. I am far from disappointed, however. I never really thought it was." Page 127, "An Illustrated Viking Voyage: Retracing Leif Eriksson's Journey in an Authentic Viking Knarr." Hodding Carter, 2000 Rockawaypoint (talk) 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I’m not sure that you understand our sourcing policy. How is someone described as “ native of Greenville, Mississippi, W. Hodding Carter has written for Outside and Esquire. In recent years, Carter has been obsessed with becoming a viking.” a reliable source. Doug Weller talk 19:18, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

He lives in Maine today.

Here is more on him. He is reliable and "widely published" too.

===========

W. Hodding Carter, IV

MAJOR WORKS BIOGRAPHY REVIEWS RELATED WEBSITES BIBLIOGRAPHY

Major Works

Off the Deep End: The Probably Insane Idea That I Could Swim My Way Through a Midlife Crisis — and Qualify for the Olympics (2008)
Flushed: How The Plumber Saved Civilization (2007)
Stolen Water: Saving the Everglades from Its Friends, Foes, and Florida (2004)
A Viking Voyage : In Which an Unlikely Crew of Adventurers Attempts an Epic Journey to the New World (2000)
An Illustrated Viking Voyage : Retracing Leif Eriksson’s Journey in an Authentic Viking Knarr (with Russell Kaye) (2000)
Westward Whoa (1994)

Biography

Born in 1962 in Greenville, Mississippi, W. Hodding Carter, IV, attended Kenyon College in Ohio where he was an NCAA swimmer and studied English literature. He volunteered in the Peace Corps for two years in Kenya.

A member of the famous family of Hodding Carters in Mississippi who were journalists and newspaper men, he worked as a writer for Esquire Magazine and M Magazine.

Carter is the son of the well-known official who served in President Jimmy Carter’s administration and the grandson of a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist (all with the same name).

His books are works of non-fiction. He and his wife lived in West Virginia where he was a white water raft guide, served on the New River Gorge City Council, and was its postmaster.

He now lives in Camden, Maine, where he writes non-fiction and teaches swimming. Rockawaypoint (talk) 19:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

None of which establishes him as a reliable source for Viking archaeology or history. Donald Albury 20:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

W. Hodding Carter has published two books about his effort to recreate the sea voyage from Greenland to North America in an accurate replica of a Viking "Knarr." What could be described as "...unreliable..." about anything he has written? Another source that should eventually be in the article is Erik Wahlgren. Will there be objections to using Wahlgren? Have you read his 1986 book "Vikings and America"? He placed Vinland on the coast of Maine. Rockawaypoint (talk) 21:32, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

He might be a reliable source about the effort to recreate the sea voyage. All that "re-creation" did was establish that a replica, which almost certainly was not an exact replica, of a knarr, could undertake such a voyage. It did not established anything about the actual voyage. The books definitely do not make him an authority on any voyages a millennium ago. Donald Albury 23:17, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Let's take up Hodding Carter in detail later on. This discussion is about Anton W. Brogger, the Norwegian archeologist. Simonm223 thought that he was not being cited anymore, but that turns out not to be true. Brogger was cited three times by T. Douglas Price, 2018. And other citations can be found, - like G.J. Marcus's 1980 "The Conquest of the North Atlantic." Anton Brogger turns up 21 times [!!] in the book. Here is one example, - "Note #3 on page Page 175,

3. Brogger and Shetelig, The Viking Ships (Oslo, 1953), p. 47. The late Professor A. W. Brogger was one of the few—the very few—scholars. who would go to professional seamen for advice on matters of seamanship and navigation.

The conquest of the North Atlantic : Marcus, Geoffrey Jules, 1906- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive Rockawaypoint (talk) 23:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Rockawaypoint Please don't bring sources here just because you like them, do your due diligence and check them.

A review here [3] concludes

"As it stands, this work will baffle or infuriate northern archaeologists, provide a mine of inaccurate references for northern workers in other fields and give a wholly misleading picture of current data and interpretation to the general public. There is simply very little to recommend here. Readers interested"

The book is ok for some things but when you read the full review it is not ok for this specific subject. Eg "Climatologists may note that the only work in their field cited dates to 1939, and one suspects that nothing later was consulted from the discussion of climate change in the text. The Parks Canada team now headed by Birgitta Wallace, who have worked so long and well at L’Anse aux Meadows, will also probably find some unexpected interpretations of that site and scant citation of their decade-long research effort" Doug Weller talk 10:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That is just one review. Erik Wahlgren is still highly respected in this field. Errors can also be found in statements made by Helge Ingstad and Birgitta Wallace. As far as sources go, what would you say about using Þorsteinn Vilhjálmsson, Professor of History and Science, Uni. of Iceland as an authority? In his 1997 paper “Time and Travel in Old Norse Society”, he wrote: -

“The fact that the Norsemen were present in America in this period was corroborated beyond doubt in 1969 when a team led by the Norwegian scholars Anne Stein and Helge Ingstad had finished excavating a Viking site at L’Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland, Helge Ingstad thought that he had found Wineland itself but most scholars now agree that Wineland could not have been so far north and that the site should be seen as a station on the way farther south.” [page 104, “Time and Travel in Old Norse Society.” 1997. Disputatio, Northwestern University Press, Evanston, Illinois]

And in a review of James Enterline’s “Erikson, Eskimos and Columbus”, 2002, T. Vilhjalmsson wrote, - “Although the sources may differ in detail, the general picture is fairly clear. Thus it seems plausible that the Viking voyagers reached as far as New England in their exploration of the eastern coast of North America.” [Page 1504, American Historical Review. Dec, 2003] Rockawaypoint (talk) 17:32, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Again, in the article specifically about Norse colonization, we should be keeping the due weight on evidence of colonization (Newfoundland and Baffin Island) rather than speculation of other possible colony sites that have yet to be discovered. Simonm223 (talk) 18:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Emphasis should be given to the conclusion of most scholars, both today and in the past, that Newfoundland cannot be Vinland and that it was farther south. It's a bitter pill for some I know. Here is another up-to-date reliable source stating that position; - "The Penguin Historical Atlas of the Vikings", John Haywood, 1995, page 98, - "....Helluland was probably Baffin Island; Markland was almost certainly Labrador. Identifying Vinland is more difficult. The only Norse settlement so far discovered in North America is at l'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland, but this is too far north to fit the saga descriptions. Vinland probably lay south of the Gulf of St Lawrence, the approximate northern limit of the wild grapes, but north of Cape Cod, the southern limit of the Atlantic salmon."

The Penguin historical atlas of the Vikings : Haywood, John, 1956- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive Rockawaypoint (talk) 19:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The Sagas are not reliable histories, but rather tales of the "heroic past" intended to entertain audiences. To quote from a review of a recent study of the sagas, (An Introduction to the Sagas of Icelanders by Carl Phelpstead, 2020, University of Florida Press)[4], "Whether the Sagas reflect actual historical events or are literary mirrors of mythology and imagination cannot really be determined," "most of them [the Sagas] were quite popular and present the 'heroic' past in lively, entertaining, but also dramatic fashion," and "the sagas present an alternative world, heroic in many aspects."(Classen, Albrecht (2020). "Review of An Introduction to the Sagas of Icelanders". Mediaevistik. 33: 482–483. ISSN 0934-7453.) Considering, amoung other things, that the sagas were not written down until four or five centuries after the events, They cannot be a reliable, detailed guide to where the Vikings sailed. Donald Albury 21:40, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Þorsteinn Vilhjálmsson Professor of History and Science at the Uni. of Iceland has a different view... in his 1999 paper "Navigation and Vinland“ he says [page 116], "The status of the Vinland sagas as historical sources has improved considerably over recent decades, not least as a result of the L’Anse aux Meadows excavations.”

You have overestimated the time between the events and writing of the sagas. Most estimates have it somewhere between 150 to 250 years. Rockawaypoint (talk) 23:14, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Found an older source on my bookshelf, The Vikings, by Johannes Brondsted (1965 [1960]) Pelican Books. On page 115, Brondsted writes (before the discovery of l'anse aux meadows), "there is not enough evidence - nautical, astronomical, or anthropological - in the sagas to pinpoint the locality of Wineland." Donald Albury 22:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Icelandic botanist Askell Love was more open minded about what could be drawn from the two sagas. He produced two "Vinland" papers in the 1950s, - "Locating Vineland the Good" in 1954, and "The Plants of Vineland the Good", 1951. In the first paper he wrote, "...By aid of the distribution areas of the three plants described in the Sagas it is possible to make a fairly exact localization of the Icelandic settlements. The Betala species involved are met with from Long Island northwards, so that the place cannot have been farther south. The Zizania species is known from southern Maine southwards, and, thus, sets its northern limits. Since both species are also known from the St Lawrence region in southern Quebec, this locale, too, must be considered a possible site. The Vitis species, however, occurs near the coast from southern Maine to southern New England, but is unknown from Quebec. Therefore, from the botanical evidence, it is concluded that the Icelandic settlement must have been situated somewhere on the coast from southern Maine to Long Island." Rockawaypoint (talk) 23:29, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

More on A. W. Brogger here. Rockawaypoint (talk) 21:02, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:AGE MATTERS..... The question is....is he cited anymore in relation to this? Moxy🍁 01:17, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The answer is no. He is not. Simonm223 (talk) 14:27, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Simonm223, what will you say about Norwegian archeologist Anton W. Brogger being cited three times in this one 2018 paper?... that can be found on JStor?

================

Introduction: New Approaches to the Study of the Viking Age Settlement across the North Atlantic, T. Douglas Price

Special Volume 7: Viking Settlers of the North Atlantic: An Isotopic Approach (2014-2018), pp. i-xii (12 pages) Rockawaypoint (talk) 16:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Rockawaypoint quotes please, as you have read it you should save us the effort. Also see my post above. Doug Weller talk 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I think I’ve seen this before and it obviously doesn’t mention the subject so it says nothing about his reputation concerning Vinland. Doug Weller talk 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Here it is... [See pages 2 and 3 of the 12 page PDF below.] "The average speed of Viking ships varied from ship to ship, but lay in the range of 5–10 knots perhaps the maximum speed of a longship under favorable conditions was probably ~15 knots (25 km/h); sailing times were highly variable and dependent on the weather and the fortunes of navigation (Brøgger and Shetelig 1971, Hale 1998). Englert (2007) deduced from a 9 th -century account of voyages along the coasts of Norway and Denmark that a Viking ship had sailed from northern Norway to the mouth of the Oslo fjord in about a month. Ships on the open sea likely averaged around 50 km per day (Bately and Englert 2007, Bill 2008, Brøgger 1951, Bruun 1997, Heide 2014).

Introduction: New Approaches to the Study of the Viking Age Settlement across the North Atlantic, T. Douglas Price

Special Volume 7: Viking Settlers of the North Atlantic: An Isotopic Approach (2014-2018), pp. i-xii (12 pages)

Rockawaypoint (talk) 19:21, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure this will not satisfy everyone but he is cited here... Surely Every Live Man Fades Among the Dead: Fear and Desire in the Afterlife of Viking Age Graves" https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1855346/FULLTEXT01.pdf

by Alison Klevnäs, 2023 Rockawaypoint (talk) 01:28, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That source makes no mention of vinland nor of North America. Simonm223 (talk) 14:29, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Have you read Brogger's 1937 book on Vinland or the articles he wrote on the subject? I'm very concerned because you've mis-represented Sauer also. Rockawaypoint (talk) 14:52, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's a book from 1937. L'Anse Aux Meadows wasn't even excavated yet. There is no relevance here. Simonm223 (talk) 14:59, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Below, excerpts of a review of Anton W. Brogger's 1937 "Vinlandsferdene."

"Scandinavian Studies and Notes", Vol. 15, No. 5 (FEBRUARY, 1939), pp. 162-166 (5 pages) The review is by Axel J. Uppvall - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, Swedish-American linguist and university teacher. [1872-1960]

================

Review: [Untitled] on JSTOR

“...Sound comments on the various aspects of the voyage, the plausibility of the tradition, and above all the results of the voyage as set forth by Brogger should prove an eye-opener to all sceptics in the field of Vindlandiana.”

“The outstanding query is: What is the location of Vinland? The approximately correct answer to this question depends upon the correct interpretation of numerous factors including that of the eyktarstad. While Brogger refrains from committing himself here, as elsewhere, he is inclined to believe that on the basis of earlier as well as of later research, particularly that of Mjelde (1927), the northern boundary of Leif's Vinland is the Charles River basin in Massachusetts. The position is, furthermore, fairly well confirmed by the observations recorded in the sources, e.g., the presence of salmon, grapes, self-sown wheat (Indian corn), and by many other minor points that become more or less significant in Brogger's hands.”

“In the chapter entitled 'Archology', Brogger has cleared the ground - we hope for all time to come - of Newport windmills, Dighton rocks and all the rest of the imaginary Vinland memorials erected in Massachusetts by the Horsfords and other amateurs. The inscription on No man's land (inside of the Barne-gate [Barnstable] peninsula), scientists have recently declared to be of recent origin. It is the work of a crank. The Kensington stone is not genuine. "But," writes Brogger, "the archaeology of Vinland is still an unwritten chapter, and now the time is ripe to begin the work in earnest."

“The recent excavations in Greenland, mentioned already in this review, have opened a new era in Vinlandiana. The results obtained have contributed tremendously to our knowledge of the Vinland expeditions and have confirmed the general trust-worthiness of the events recorded in the sagas and enhanced their historical importance far beyond expectation.” University of Pennsylvania, Axel Johan Uppvall Rockawaypoint (talk) 22:17, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Rockawaypoint You are again ignoring what others have. WP:AGEMATTERS. Doug Weller talk 13:14, 5 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I think "age matters" is solved by the table in this proposed draft: Talk:Norse colonization of North America/sandbox. Means we don't have a lot of quotes and makes the weight of opinions clearer. We might have to add to it. Doug Weller talk 08:44, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Please see WP:RSN#Is this article declaring the Newport Tower a 12th c. baptistry a reliable source for the tower??

Doug Weller talk 15:18, 1 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:White Sands fossil footprints#Requested move 12 December 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:White Sands fossil footprints#Requested move 12 December 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —usernamekiran (talk) 03:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Odd Viking Articles

I have come across several odd articles regarding Vikings or the Arctic while drafting a rewrite to large portions of Norse colonization of North America based on the discussion above. Many thanks to anybody who wants to take a swing at improving any of these:

John Scolvus: We only have one sentence about the guy from a globe, but it can be read to mean that he either went to Greenland or Canada in 1476, and so nationalists from every European country (minus Spain) have tried to claim him. This article is really lost in the weeds about what pirates he could have sailed with.
Avayalik: Avayalik-1 is a Dorset archaeological site. Maybe it is a "possible site of early Norse colonization" but the WP:RS I came across don't really go further than saying there is evidence that they may have traded with the Norse, which is still pretty notable since the view for a long time was that nobody could stand the Norse enough to engage with them in North America. I think the confusion may come from an earlier belief that the Dorset did not spin their own yarn, but in the last 5 years this is one of the places where new dating methods have shown that the Dorset had an indigenous spinning tradition going back 2 thousand years and so a good 1 thousand years before the Vikings pulled up.
Gunnbjörn's skerries: This starts from the assumption that the islands blew up like a bomb. Initially I thought that it was original research, but looking at the citations, I think it's just from only having access to outdated sources (1873, 1874, 1972).
Straumfjörð: This is so chaotic. It starts out "The exact location of Straumfjörð is disputed." and then gives multiple conflicting directions on how to get there. It pauses for a moment to cite a couple sources who think it might not exist. Then starts listing places in North America until the article ends.
Luso–Danish expedition to North America: Up for deletion, but there is some discussion about redoing the article with a more appropriate scope, and so maybe watchlist.

Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:25, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Rjjiii I think merging Avayalik which is actually known as Avayalik-1 with Avayalik Islands is a no-brainer. Doug Weller talk 13:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]