Jump to content

Talk:Aristotelian physics/Archive 2

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1Archive 2

Hatnote headache: Can we just rename this article?

I am more or less in sympathy with Machine Elf's recent restatement of the hatnote, especially the first sentence, which refreshingly states what this article is about, "terrestrial and celestial mechanics (dynamics)" in Aristotle's works. My residual dissatisfaction comes from the fact that the article title "Aristotelian physics" is still plastered on at the top. As long as this is there, the reader is misled into believing that "Aristotelian physics" (as used in reliable sources) generally refers to certain doctrines on dynamics, rather than to that wide field of study that includes biology, philosophy of mind, etc. Given this confusion, the remainder of the hatnote cannot satisfy, because it wrongly suggests that the other topics are merely alternate or secondary uses of "Aristotelian physics."

So can we remove the need for both clarifications by moving the article to Aristotelian mechanics or Aristotelian dynamics? The lead could then simply explain, when it says that dynamics corresponds to a branch of the modern field of physics, e.g.: "(In Aristotelian philosophy, on the other hand, "physics" is a broader term for the philosophy of nature, with much emphasis on the nature of biological organisms. This is the subject matter of Aristotle's treatise Physics and several others.)"

Would other editors support a move, and if so, to which of my suggested titles, or to which other title? Wareh (talk) 15:45, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Good move. JKeck (talk) 18:59, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Not so good

Links to the old name Aristotelian physics
Links to new name Aristotelian mechanics

In contrast to Aristotelian Physics, the pseudo-Aristotelian Mechanics was about machines:

In the Physica, Aristotle had established the general principles of motion and change that govern all natural bodies; in his more specific natural works – such as De caelo, De generatione et corruptione, and the various works De animalibus – Aristotle applied these principles to natural changes of all kinds occurring in animate and inanimate bodies: generation, growth, the fall of heavy bodies, and the motions of the stars. But inevitably, within the context of natural philosophy, there also arose questions concerning unnatural or forced motions, such as the motion of projectiles and in general the changes effected by men through the various arts. Partly this was because Aristotle used forced motions and in general the changes produced by art as analogies in order to discover the less obvious causes of natural motions; and partly it was because natural and forced motions are often inextricably combined in daily experience.
In contrast to natural philosophy, the ancient art or science of mechanics was notable for working against or at least outside of nature to effect motion for the use and benefit of mankind. This, at least, was the view taken in the pseudo-Aristotelian Mechanica ("Questions of Mechanics" or "Mechanical Problems") (fourth century BC), the earliest-known theoretical treatment of machines and the earliest attempt to reduce their operations to a single principle. In its introduction, the Mechanica suggested that machines of all sorts work against or outside of nature in order to effect changes that are of benefit to men. A machine that moves a large weight with a small power, for example, produces an effect for human benefit, and this effect is not natural, for it violates the Aristotelian physical assumption that a moving power must be greater than the weight it moves. Mechanics and physics thus seem to be in conflict.[1]

  1. ^ Laird, Roy; Roux, Sophie (2006). "Mechanics and Natural Philosophy Before The Scientific Revolution" (PDF). pp. 6–7. Retrieved 22 July 2010. {{cite web}}: |chapter= ignored (help)

People have been linking to this article for Aristotelian Physics, any specifics on the natural sciences it lacks should be added. Redirecting its 127 links to Corpus Aristotelicum#Physics (the study of nature) isn't right. Only 3 articles link here now.

I'm wasn't unsympathetic to a rename but I couldn't think of a better one... I think this article stands its best chance for improvement under its former name. Sorry I didn't chime in sooner about the rename/hatenote... Perhaps I could I interest you in the more excruciating aches and pains this article has to offer? LOL

I'd be happy to add the list you redirected to. I didn't review the article for completeness. I just corrected what was already there and added a little more. I know its missing anima, at least... I do have a better and more concise list of concepts that could be paraphrased to replace the "bold points". Then they could be refractored into the article structure, maybe using refs/notes back to the concepts to qualify ambiguous science terms... Or, that's what I'd like to work on anyway. I have some good sources for the proper role of Mathematics/Astronomy, to "save the appearances", as well as some quotes from Metereology. Also, I found a cool source from Thomas Kuhn; about a physicist explaining why he had always misinterpreted Aristotle and how that changed for him.—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 19:24, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Redirect to § Corpus Aristotelicum#Physics (the study of nature)
The list of Aristotle's works on Aristotelian physics (i.e. nature) from Corpus Aristotelicum

I think there's some confusion here

From the above and the edit summary ("moved Aristotelian mechanics to History of Science (Aristotelian physics): pseudo Aristotelian mechanics is about machines"), I think there's some confusion which we should be able to resolve here.

  1. The title "Aristotelian mechanics" was chosen with no reference to the pseudo-Aristotelian treatise. Rather, it was chosen based on the fact that the subject of the article is (according to Machine Elf's own edits), mechanics (and more specifically dynamics).
  2. While this title seemed correct on its own merits, the words "Aristotelian" and "mechanics" are also associated with each other in connection with the pseudo-Aristotelian treatise, thus necessitating a note at the top for disambiguation purposes. That note was the opposite of a statement of the subject of this article! Apparently Machine Elf is unfamiliar with disambiguation on Wikipedia; the note at the top of Fozzy instructing readers to look at a different article for the Muppet is likewise precisely because the subject of Fozzy is not a Muppet.
  3. The title "History of Science (Aristotelian physics) is a bit of a mess and not in accordance with any normal titling practice. I want to suggest Aristotelian mechanics, though of course we should work on consensus here first if necessary: the mechanics to be found in the works of Aristotle, seems straightforward.
  4. The phrase "Aristotelian physics," in reliable sources about Aristotle, refers to the theory of living organisms, the theories of mind, sensation, etc., and so much else that has nothing to do with physics, that it is inappropriate to this article, whether in parentheses or not. This is the driving force behind my move, and one thing I strongly believe needs to be solved one way or another.
  5. "Aristotelian mechanics (history of science)" would be a correct article if there were really two common usages of "Aristotelian mechanics." It is unobjectionable, but unnecessary, in my view, since the article Mechanics (Aristotle) is not entitled "Aristotelian mechanics," so that the hatnote is sufficient.

I hope Machine Elf can be satisfied, from these points, that the article title Aristotelian mechanics may be the best available -- if in fact (s)he agrees that this article is about the mechanics on offer in various works of Aristotle. And I also hope M.E. will clearly understand that I am in 10000% agreement that the subject of Mechanics (Aristotle) has nothing to do with this article, which is why we need a note pointing out to the reader that if they want Aristotle on machines -- an entirely different subject with the word "mechanics" in it in a different sense -- they should look elsewhere.

Finally, I had the problem of where to redirect Aristotelian physics. Since what this phrase refers to, in reliable sources about Aristotle, are the various treatises on "the study of nature," I couldn't find anything better to link to than the listing of those treatises in a section of Corpus Aristotelicum. In other words, this is because "Aristotelian physics" refers, first and foremost, to the contents of Aristotle's Physics, De Anima, On Generation and Corruption, etc. (The inclusion of Mechanica in that list is utterly accidental.) Wareh (talk) 19:55, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

I realize I didn't address the issue of "broken links" to Aristotelian physics. Normally I'm very conscientious about fixing these. It's trickier here, because many of the links to Aristotelian physics presumably intend to refer to the subject matter Aristotelian scholars call "physics," which does not resemble this article's contents. There is no article in Wikipedia on Aristotelian physics, as there is for Aristotelian ethics, only the articles on the individual "physical" (i.e. biological, etc.) works.
Now, even though M.E. made the mechanics/dynamics edit to the hatnote, which made me assume M.E. saw the subject of this article the same way I did, I now read e.g. "I know its missing anima, at least," which implies M.E. wants this article to be about all departments of "Aristotelian physics" (i.e. all the contents of what is listed under "physics" at Corpus Aristotelicum). That would be great in my view, but the present article is not a starting point for a treatment of that subject. This article cannot become one about "Aristotelian physics" by mere addition. It began with a purpose of demolishing Aristotelian mechanics based on modern physics, in dependence on a misleading misuse of the term "Aristotelian physics" to mean what it doesn't mean ("alternative explanations to your physics textbook," vs. "the theories of Aristotle's biological & physical writings").

The first steps, I believe, if we really want an article on that, is:

  1. Make a new Aristotelian physics with sections for all the works in that list;
  2. Recognize that this article was never intended to cover all that biology, psychology, etc., but is about areas of modern physics (etymologically distinct but completely different definition): math-based dynamics, etc.
  3. So keep the name of this article Aristotelian mechanics or Scientific critique of Aristotle's dynamics or whatever.
This article has problems, but I'm bending over backwards here to find some place for its content. The point, which needs to be addressed before all others, is that "Aristotelian physics" is not its subject matter. In "Aristotelian physics," theories of perception, growth, etc., have as much or more place than the content here.
My sincere apologies for being a bit repetitive and long-winded here. I would just really like to avoid unnecessary and messy misunderstandings. Wareh (talk) 20:04, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
I didn't say that's why you choose it. I said that's what it refers to. My own edit to the cursed hatnote was: "terrestrial and celestial mechanics (dynamics)", because I was trying to accommodate you. Neither "Terrestrial Mechanics" nor "Celestial Mechanics" imply machines or any unnatural manipulation of nature. Because of the pseudo work however, that's what the obscure term "Aristotelian mechanics" turns up in a search.
"Apparently Machine Elf is unfamiliar with disambiguation on Wikipedia" No, but I'm unfamiliar with renaming a longstanding article to fix it's hatnote. Frankly, no one does much searching for either "Aristotelian mechanics" or the pseudo work. Add more biology to the article, don't wish it away into the corn field.
I believe I've it perfectly clear that I think "Aristotelian mechanics" is a very poor choice. You don't seem to understand change of all kinds, including all motion in the heavens and below the moon, is the subject of his Physics, including all qualitative change (maybe that's what you mean by "theories of mind") and all growth, diminution, coming to be and passing away of both living non–living substance on earth. As the passage I quoted indicates: "Mechanics and physics thus seem to be in conflict". This article is about his physics. Please help improve it.
I've put a great deal of effort into the anachronism of "physics" in the modern sense versus "Aristotelian physics". You seem to be insisting that "Aristotelian physics" must no longer be the title of article. Is that what you strongly believe?
Mechanics (Aristotle) is the article stub on the obscure pseudo Aristotelian work.
‘M.E. wants this article to be about all departments of "Aristotelian physics"’ CORRECT
‘(i.e. all the contents of what is listed under "physics" at Corpus Aristotelicum)’ Wikipedia is not a reliable source ^_^~ But sure, why not? That would be great. I've include the list ["Corpus Aristotelicum#Physics (the study of nature)"] in this articles see also section which previously only had De caelo.
If I could reverse the name of this article back to "Aristotelian physics" I would. But I can't, so I've now renamed it "Aristotelian physics (history of science)".
‘It began with a purpose of demolishing Aristotelian mechanics based on modern physics...’ You're preaching to the choir (a cappella, without harping on "mechanics" would be preferred). Had you made short work of this longstanding article sooner, I wouldn't have invested my time and effort into addressing the issues by attempting to improve this, the Wikipedia article on Aristotelian physics.
I disagree with every step of your plan. As I've made clear.
Ha! you are hardly "bending over backwards" hatnote dude. And it's Mr. Elf, by the way. But you call me 1735.—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 22:47, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
First of all, you can reverse the move I did: see WP:RM. In fact, I wish the objection had come before my move (I did wait some days), so that we could be having a more focused discussion on the actual issues. The current title (thanks for undoing the inverted form) will do as a placeholder pending a better discussion.
We do need a better discussion. Prime proof of this: You are still saying, "Neither 'Terrestrial Mechanics' nor 'Celestial Mechanics' imply machines," when the total irrelevance of machines and Mechanics (Aristotle) to this article is something I agree about, something you have misunderstood, and something which is fully explained above. Until you understand this point, at least, I'm sure we are pointlessly misunderstanding each other, even if we also have serious substantive disagreements.
It was another misunderstanding if you thought the purpose of your edit stating the subject of this article was mechanics & dynamics was to please me. I am not the author of the hatnote as a whole, and my only motivation was to point out that the article does not contain even a basic treatment of any of the core of what a consensus of reliable sources thinks "Aristotelian physics" means.
I can see why you'd think this article could become an article on Aristotelian physics (in the broader correct sense that includes psychology, biology, etc.), but I'd like you to understand better some of the difficulties. My point in a nutshell is this: Any 1% competent article on the actual subject of "Aristotelian physics," even if only four sentences long, would mention concepts such as "organism," "soul," etc. The fact that this article was quite long without mentioning them is, therefore, proof that it intended a subject quite different from Aristotelian physics. The subject was, rather, a narrow (and relatively marginal) sliver of Aristotle's physical writings, which, because they happen to overlap with physics (a confusing case of the same word meaning two different things), someone thought should be compared in an essay on Wikipedia.
The bottom line is that anyone reading this article will be sorely misinformed about what "Aristotelian physics" means. Here are some encyclopedia articles, written by experts, on major topics in Aristotelian writings on nature (Greek physis), i.e. "physics" in the Aristotelian sense: [1] [2] [3]. What is your explanation for why this article completely excluded those topics, for why the lead of the article does not even allow for them? Really, for this reason, modern writers would do well to avoid "Aristotelian physics": the title Istvan Bodnar chooses, "Aristotle's Natural Philosophy," is more comprehensible, and would avoid this confusion. (For the record, then, I would like Aristotelian physics to redirect to a full article at Aristotelian philosophy of nature, with a note explaining "Aristotelian physics redirects here. For the intersection between Aristotle's work and the topics of modern physics, see Whatever this article should be named.") What, then, to call an article that only cares about the intersection between Aristotle and physics in the modern sense? This is a worthy subject, and, despite your skepticism, I will bend over backwards to keep it in the encyclopedia. (On the other hand, if this really becomes an article about all Aristotle's philosophy of nature, I think I will have an excellent case for simply deleting most of the unduly focused stuff whose only excuse for being here is that it has to do with modern physics topics!) I just want it labeled correctly. Note that I have never intervened to remove or question the actual content of this article: I am an inclusionist. Go back to the previous part of this talk page: if not Aristotelian mechanics, then what? Will anything without the word physics please you?
Finally, I want to mention that, yes, we can find "academic" sources, e.g. written by modern physicists, that will throw around "Aristotelian physics" as if it's a good title for this discussion. But that's horribly misleading to anyone who knows what the title of Physics (Aristotle) actually means, and it completely disagrees with the terminology used by experts on Aristotle, who trump physicists in getting to decide what "Aristotelian physics" means. If necessary, I will prove my assertion that experts on Aristotle understand "physics" more as I suggest than as this article frames it, but I'm hoping that won't be necessary (of course, Wikipedia is not my source, but the Bekker corpus does lump together the physical & biological texts in a way that is not controversial).
So can we assume good faith better, here, avoid misunderstandings, and try to come up with a solution that does not use a well-established domain of Aristotelian studies (ta physika) as the title for something only very partially related to it? Stuffing psychology and biology into this article that never wanted them can't be the best solution. Wareh (talk) 01:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm using a non–standard discussion format here for my own ease of reply. My apologies if that inconveniences anyone.
re: “It was another misunderstanding if you thought the purpose of your edit stating the subject of this article was mechanics & dynamics was to please me. I am not the author of the hatnote as a whole, and my only motivation was to point out that the article does not contain even a basic treatment of any of the core of what a consensus of reliable sources thinks "Aristotelian physics" means.”
I've never said you were the original author of the hatnote or that I've done anything to "please" you. I said "I was trying to accommodate you". I'm not willing to spend any more of my time discussing your "motivation" except to state that what you meant does not change the title's meaning. (Also, see my response to questions of WP:AGF below).
  1. (cur | prev) 14:45, 20 July 2010 Wareh (talk | contribs) (68 bytes) (more appropriate redirect) (undo)
  2. (cur | prev) 14:44, 20 July 2010 Wareh (talk | contribs) (36 bytes) (moved Aristotelian physics to Aristotelian mechanics over redirect: In accepted WP:RS usage, "Aristotelian physics" does not refer to the subject of this article -- use existing redirect)
In general, your polemic language misrepresents the article with specious claims to a comprehensive knowledge of WP:RS in regard to both "Aristotelian mechanics" and "Aristotelian physics". I've already said I'm fine with expanding the article and I've never claimed the article was complete. Thank you for pointing out "History of Science (Aristotelian physics)" wasn't properly formatted (so to speak) and for noticing I had already fixed that so–called "atrocity". Your hyperbole and polemics doesn't personally bother me in terms of WP:CIV/WP:AGF, but it makes it difficult to briefly express disagreement with you (and not appear to be your combative counterpart); it also makes it difficult to briefly express agreement with what you say. The history of this article compounds those difficulties. I doubt any its editors have intentionally mislead the reader.
re: “I can see why you'd think this article could become an article on Aristotelian physics (in the broader correct sense that includes psychology, biology, etc.), but I'd like you to understand better some of the difficulties. My point in a nutshell is this: Any 1% competent article on the actual subject of "Aristotelian physics," even if only four sentences long, would mention concepts such as "organism," "soul," etc. The fact that this article was quite long without mentioning them is, therefore, proof that it intended a subject quite different from Aristotelian physics. The subject was, rather, a narrow (and relatively marginal) sliver of Aristotle's physical writings, which, because they happen to overlap with physics (a confusing case of the same word meaning two different things), someone thought should be compared in an essay on Wikipedia.”
You are just flat wrong about "proof" of intent. Besides which, you'll find I removed a short treatment of the human body because it needs to be addressed with greater care from a better source. It spoke only of a unique ratio of elements in a human's body—but that should be proximate substance to the anima, whose unique ratio (voodoo alert) via proximately efficient cause, sperm, makes Socrates Jr. I just didn't feel like fleshing it out at the time. Mea culpa. The article does mention the metaphysical movers and even has an oblique reference to the word "soul", but clearly, his hylomorphic treatment of a viable "organism" vs. meat needs to be hashed out, (without adopting the "synonymous" body/body organic/inorganic confusion). In short, the article just needs to be expanded to dote on all the pedantic scholastic details, their lack of relevance to contemporary philosophy, and give the proper historical disproofs by Galileo; but it can still retain a more parsimonious summary for the scientifically minded. I don't know where the "1% competent" thing is from, but thanks for sharing your opinion. That "narrow (and relatively marginal) sliver" is actually the basis for 99% of Aristotle's natural philosophy, give or take some voodoo proximity. Ya learn something new every day.
re: “The bottom line is that anyone reading this article will be sorely misinformed about what "Aristotelian physics" means. Here are some encyclopedia articles, written by experts, on major topics in Aristotelian writings on nature (Greek physis), i.e. "physics" in the Aristotelian sense: [4] [5] [6]. What is your explanation for why this article completely excluded those topics, for why the lead of the article does not even allow for them? Really, for this reason, modern writers would do well to avoid "Aristotelian physics": the title Istvan Bodnar chooses, "Aristotle's Natural Philosophy," is more comprehensible, and would avoid this confusion. (For the record, then, I would like Aristotelian physics to redirect to a full article at Aristotelian philosophy of nature, with a note explaining "Aristotelian physics redirects here. For the intersection between Aristotle's work and the topics of modern physics, see Whatever this article should be named.") What, then, to call an article that only cares about the intersection between Aristotle and physics in the modern sense? This is a worthy subject, and, despite your skepticism, I will bend over backwards to keep it in the encyclopedia. (On the other hand, if this really becomes an article about all Aristotle's philosophy of nature, I think I will have an excellent case for simply deleting most of the unduly focused stuff whose only excuse for being here is that it has to do with modern physics topics!) I just want it labeled correctly. Note that I have never intervened to remove or question the actual content of this article: I am an inclusionist. Go back to the previous part of this talk page: if not Aristotelian mechanics, then what? Will anything without the word physics please you?”
As per your request, my explanation is that you're seriously overstating... everything. LOL, you are the one having a freaking cow over the word "physics".
re: “Finally, I want to mention that, yes, we can find "academic" sources, e.g. written by modern physicists, that will throw around "Aristotelian physics" as if it's a good title for this discussion. But that's horribly misleading to anyone who knows what the title of Physics (Aristotle) actually means, and it completely disagrees with the terminology used by experts on Aristotle, who trump physicists in getting to decide what "Aristotelian physics" means. If necessary, I will prove my assertion that experts on Aristotle understand "physics" more as I suggest than as this article frames it, but I'm hoping that won't be necessary (of course, Wikipedia is not my source, but the Bekker corpus does lump together the physical & biological texts in a way that is not controversial).”
You're a long way from representing experts and judging by this article's history, it would seem WP leaves those who think they "trump physicists" to fend for themselves. Like I said, I don't have a problem with expanding the article and I'm not going to respond to these repeated bloviations.
re: “So can we assume good faith better, here, avoid misunderstandings, and try to come up with a solution that does not use a well-established domain of Aristotelian studies (ta physika) as the title for something only very partially related to it? Stuffing psychology and biology into this article that never wanted them can't be the best solution. Wareh (talk) 01:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)”
Ya buddy, why don't you WP:AGF? Or, are you accusing me of something? If so, show me the diff.—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 15:45, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
I knew I was missing some of it...
re: “First of all, you can reverse the move I did: see WP:RM. In fact, I wish the objection had come before my move (I did wait some days), so that we could be having a more focused discussion on the actual issues. The current title (thanks for undoing the inverted form) will do as a placeholder pending a better discussion.”
Thanks for the info: WP:RM.
re: “We do need a better discussion. Prime proof of this: You are still saying, "Neither 'Terrestrial Mechanics' nor 'Celestial Mechanics' imply machines," when the total irrelevance of machines and Mechanics (Aristotle) to this article is something I agree about, something you have misunderstood, and something which is fully explained above. Until you understand this point, at least, I'm sure we are pointlessly misunderstanding each other, even if we also have serious substantive disagreements.”
"Still" saying? I corrected your misquote. Stop trying to represent what I say. This is just twisted and I'm done with it.—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 16:17, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorting it out

Look, I feel we've both engaged each other counter-productively, and I share your frustration that it seems difficult to discuss this without unduly long comments that run the risk of seeming more combative than intended. Perhaps the blame is all mine; all I can really say in my defense is that I do not often find myself in this situation. I have taken some care in the following questions to be direct, friendly, and easily answerable. So I hope you can help by answering once more.
Are we are actually in agreement that the article as named should eventually deal with all the subject matter of the genuine Aristotelian treatises listed in this section? Could you state simply whether you agree with this, or, if not, could you specify which genuine works in that listing you would exclude from treatment in this article?
As a follow-up, only if we do agree on that point (and I inferred that we do, based on "But sure, why not? That would be great," above), is the question of whether the article is yet recognizable as announcing that scope, and whether it is moving towards more correctly announcing its scope. In short, the present lead ("his natural sciences including terrestrial and celestial mechanics (dynamics)") seems very opaquely, at best, to indicate anything about the biology, philosophy of mind, various body/soul problems raised in the Parva Naturalia, etc. My entire concern up till now (however poorly expresed or misunderstood) has been that the article commits the crime of basic misinformation by not clearly announcing this range of topics as the meaning of "Aristotelian physics." (If you agree and will soon remove the misinformation, just say so - I can only applaud you if you solve this problem. If you agree and don't intend to address this, that's when I'd like to attempt a consensus-worthy restatement of the article's scope in the lead. But I'm kind of scared away from trying by myself after so much unproductive argument.)
Finally (because so much of the problem, and something I can consider myself innocent of, is that the phrase "Aristotelian physics" is so confusing to so many kinds of readers), do you (or does anyone else here - it would be nice to have more discussants) believe this article would less confusingly be titled Aristotelian philosophy of nature, Aristotelian natural philosophy, or some similar variant? Wareh (talk) 17:54, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
Excellent, a brand–new day.—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 19:07, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
I think we do very much agree that physics was the study of nature in the broadest possible sense (and that's a huge subject). I think referring to a list of Aristotle's works classified under the subject does have value if we bear in mind that generally one must refer to portions of various works because they don't represent a clean hierarchy of subjects (defined by whatever scheme—ancient, medieval, modern or contemporary) and that a treatment by subject will, of necessity, cut across the works of Aristotle, both as written and as received.
Barring the works marked as disputed or spurious, yes we should draw on that list but we should not treat it as exhaustive. (We'll need some metaphysics, "analytics" and categories, for example, without getting lost therein). It's equally misleading to over–compensate with too much emphasis on medical, biological, taxonomical and (what we call) psychological aspects.
Even today's physics, or for a finer point, QM, should give rise to all that in unexplained ways. Who was it that said a full description of the principles on which a cell operates would be far more complicated than a full description of the principles governing the universe as a whole? Perhaps it could be said that Aristotle believed his conceptual approach captures what is most profound, and that it's applicable self–similarly at every scope, and that it's the business of mere mathematics to "save the appearances". (Ironically, a backhanded compliment for those better at math, which was at best a leap of faith).
The study of the nature of things is only one step removed from the study of what it is to be existing. Eternal and unchanging Nature is best exemplified by uniform circular motion, (the branch of mathematics called astronomy teases out our daily view of that which is the subject of sub–science of theology) but the self–similarly enduring phenomena of the natural world, (the ♪circle of life♪), though less perfect, are apprehended by the physics (the study of changes that are almost as perfect as that which exemplifies the sheer eternal apprehending of apprehension).
So, with no Platonic epistemological cop–out, Physics is the study of Nature, i.e. the study of how Nature's elements operate in general. Today we're not even close to a fully reductionist description of biology and it's easy to show Aristotle in a bad light on account of this hubris. I've been concerned to treat the simpler, more abstract examples which demonstrate he wasn't irrational, incompetent or anti–empirical. On the other hand, his approach, the over–generalization of his concepts and his stop–gap measures were tragically flawed.
Students of some sciences don't have the spare time to wade through Aristotle, (and some modern minds will balk in literal pain), so popular treatments of ancient science like the one in Carl Sagan's book Cosmos, (and countless websites), replace ignorance with a few half–truths and much misplaced praise and ridicule. (Russell, with his scathing wit, should be excused for having been forced to disprove some of Aristotle's logic at so late a date—enough to make an enemy for life of anyone).
Regardless of the reason this article was marked with high importance for the history of science, I agree that it is highly important. I think including a parsimonious treatment that doesn't dally too long with the color of eyeball jelly, will be within the pain tolerance of an over–burdened science student's attention span. But that's only part of what the article needs to tackle (using WP:RS secondary sources, of course).
I think it should include some material about Galileo's experiments and it certainly should go into greater detail about the various works, in addition. Perhaps with the reader from a classics background and then maybe a philosophy background in mind. (And whoever the ostensible general reader might be of course).
In terms of primary sources, I think (one translation or another of) these works will command particular attention in our efforts: Physica, De Anima, De Generatione et Corruptione, De Caelo and (because it contains such clearly expressed implementations) Meteorologica. This would be not only for the sake of explaining (the causes of) how the elements of Nature (double entendre) operate in general, (omni–hylomorphically), but because astronomy was so critical in undermining the foundations of all "Aristotelianism".
Whatever slow and humble contribution to the article I'm eventually able to make would be around Aristotle's own works. I'm very weak when it comes to later Hellenic piddy–patters, or Islamic and medieval Aristotelianism. It creates a moving target that's somewhat challenging but very important in terms of the history of science. (Things tend to get mixed up with Neoplatonism, and identifying Plato's original influence on his student, as well as the cultural influences, is something I personally find more interesting at this time). So, hopefully, some more contributors will join in soon and help get the ball rolling.—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 19:07, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps trying to sum up a subject like this in a terse and pithy one–liner for the hatnote created some of the confusion and part of that maybe was in trying to reflect the more developed aspects of the article's current state, rather than the full scope of Physics expounded as one would in writing the article's lead. I'll remove "his natural sciences including terrestrial and celestial mechanics (dynamics)" as soon as I post this. In my last edit to the lead, I left it in because the subject was a bit touchy at the time. The text we have now for the lead is a product of ongoing consensus in so far it's not authored entirely by a single person... if the opposite of "consensus–worthy" would be "peculiar", lets keep at it until we iron out the wrinkles and please feel free to WP:BRD... So far, I think that will leave us with:
Aristotelian Physics his [the] natural sciences[,] described in the works of the Greek philosopher Aristotle (384 BC – 322 BC). In the Physics, Aristotle established his general principles of change that govern all natural bodies; both living and inanimate, celestial and terrestrial—including all motion, change in respect to place, and qualitative change of any kind: birth, growth or passing away. To Aristotle, physics is a broad term that includes all nature sciences, such as biology, and constitutes the subject matter of many of his works."
How about replacing "biology" with "philosophy of mind, body, sense experience, memory and biology"? "Psychology" itself needs explanation and the word "soul" is extremely misleading. I think we should use "anima" and treat it as another instance of technical jargon whose "short" explanation is going to be one of the longer ones on the list (and we'll need multi–leveled hylomorphism as well). In terms of the lead, can "mind", perhaps, be considered temporarily viable as a double–duty reference (inclusive of less fancy electrochemical activity characterizing living things)? Obviously, this is all still quite minimal... What mind/body problems in Parva Naturalia do you have in mind?—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 19:07, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
I think using a variant of "Natural philosophy" as a circumlocution for "physics" would further the obfuscation and that it's really not so very strange after all. The list of works will clarify nothing for readers. In a way, Aristotelian physics is much less important to the history of philosophy qua science, than it is to the history of physics qua physics. You won't find many contemporary philosophers getting too worked up over Aristotle. I've been told he still has some currency in Ethics only. I think including some of the history from the Natural philosophy article would be good, to explain how science became distinct and further specialized. Also, a general explanation of "natural" as opposed to "artifice", (rather than meaning rustic or something like "hippy–granola").—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 19:07, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

(1) I don't disagree that an article on Aristotle's philosophy of nature would have to look beyond one traditional division of the corpus and into the Metaphysics, etc. (2) "How about replacing 'biology' with 'philosophy of mind, body, sense experience, memory and biology'?" Yes, I think something like that would be helpful. (3) You speak of working on the treatment of Aristotle's ideas as expressed in his works on these subjects, rather than the spin-offs into Medieval writers, etc. Yes, this what will most improve an article on Aristotle's philosophy of nature, change, soul, etc. In fact, the material on the reception of "Aristotelian physics" is as partial and inadequate as the expository Aristotle part. As long as it persists in its present form, it will be distorted to fit the "history of science" mold rather than really dealing with the reception of this branch of Aristotle's philosophy. (4) I still feel that the article's underdevelopment of the whole subject (as we seem to agree in defining it) in its current state gives a very misleading impression. Thanks for the help with the lead, but the article's treatment of the actual subject consists only of "Main principles," which certainly suggest a scope of the subject at odds with what you and I seem to agree it should be

My apologies if I seem to be simply standing on the sidelines kicking dirt at the article. My concerns about the skewed emphasis as I state them here in (3) & (4) mean that I'd still say the quickest way to do damage-control on this article would be to retitle it in accordance with what it actually discusses -- though our messy disagreement about this, coupled with your intention to reform the article according to the actual meaning of its title, has persuaded me to give up that idea. In short, my imagination is just not strong & hopeful enough right now to conceive this article giving a reader a good overview, which is why I'm in deliberative mode rather than constructive mode (though unfortunately I simply don't have the available time to give the help this page deserves in any case). I'm looking at the article and seeing a wish to treat a subject different from "Aristotelian physics." But an instinct to correct rather to abandon or to reshelve somewhere temporarily convenient (my attempted solution, which blew up on me) is certainly nobler. Dealing with the inflated expectations of armchair critics is one of the costs of such an approach, though, so...

To try to be more positive, I do not necessarily think the "See also" list needs to be there. My advice, in support of what you seem to envision, is to

  1. Consider whether "Main principles" ought to be renamed "Principles of Aristotelian dynamics" vel sim. (By the way, I never had occasion to speak of "dynamics" until this discussion, so it's not my pet word. I'm just applying the closest word to hand here.) I still don't see how such a physical-not-biological-sciences version of Aristotle's theory of change and motion can be adequate as "Main principles" for the whole subject.
  2. Introduce, as early as possible, section headings for the "departments" of Aristotelian physics as you understand it, with liberal use of Template:Expand section to make the article structure correctly resemble the structure of the subject it claims to treat.

Please don't misconstrue this as a demand; beggars can't be choosers, I know that. But you seem to have a lot of energy and to recognize in principle that the article should have all those sections. Wareh (talk) 19:37, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Constructive criticism is a productive contribution too. If we commit to its longevity at least, it's probably the only way to precipitate improvement. I know I wouldn't spend time on it if its fate seemed uncertain (notability being no problem).
The article structure was top of my list. "Vacuum is impossible" as a main principle, yep, that's pretty cringe–inducing. Aristotle gets a lot of ridicule for that one, although I just came across a treatment on WP that suggested his argument against it was the first statement of the law of inertia. (As I recall, Newton said something similar). But, as Sagan said, Democritus "invented" the word Atom and slavery made the Greeks too decadent for science. No doubt Alexander would have had nukes if that racist Aristotle hadn't of ruined science like he did :)
I had done a search and "Aristotelian dynamics" actually comes into use in terms of Islamic or medieval science. Anachronistically, maybe kinematics (κινεῖν: to move) would get the point across too but "Ancient concepts" can't be mistaken for terminology. Like I said, I have a more concise (more complete too, I should have added) list of conceptual jargon. I just need to paraphrase it and refactor the current exposition into structure.
Scientists have their saints and sinners, that's for sure (but most don't like to be misinformed). Not much I can do for the Islamic or medieval science section except copy from a (cleaned up) article at some point.—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 02:12, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, with this reply I'm the most encouraged I've ever been that the article structure will come to express the breadth of the subject. (Sorting out the "legacy" sections is certainly desirable but much less urgent.) Wareh (talk) 13:37, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

(random heading)

This article desperately needs references to the Condemnations of 1210-1277, without which it seems like pretty shoddy work. ghh 15:20, 11 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by George H. Harvey (talk • contribs)

(for readability. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 11:13, 5 February 2010 (UTC))

Article not finished. ♣ ÅñôñÿMôús Dîššíd3nt 11:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

This article shows only a superficial understanding of Aristotle's physics and no appreciation of its importance to the history of science; it sorely needs improvement. Most significantly, it fails to distinguish between Aristotle's cosmology and his principles of nature (physics). JKeck (talk) 20:42, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

The article starts off stupidly: "The Greek philosopher Aristotle (384 BC – 322 BC) developed many theories on the nature of physics", as if physics in the modern sense were some sort of self-existing entity, some Truth, lying just beyond the next hill waiting to be discovered. With great justification, the article continues that Aristotle's theories "are completely different from what are now understood as the laws of physics." But almost immediately stumbles into great ignorance when says they include "a variety of principles, most of which modern science has now disproved, and which provide no significant roots to any area of modern physics." In other words, the article forgets that Aristotle's physics is completely different from modern mechanics and fails to evaluate Aristotle's principles based on his distinct aims (aims that are foundational for modern science). Instead the article evaluates it with a modern bias, as if modern physics were all there is to know about nature. The one part of the article whose reference is to an actual Aristotelian philosopher (Helen S. Lang--misspelled as "Land") doesn't show any evidence of actually having read that text beyond gleaning a single group of facts (and can't even bother to get the author's name right!). Many of the articles cited re: principles are non-peer-reviewed web presentations by physicists who show no evidence of ever having studied Aristotle's physics in any depth (that is, beyond superficially comparing some of his ideas to what we today call physics--this is not extraordinary for us physicists). This article needs a LOT of work. I don't see how it presently qualifies as A-Class. If I were grading this as a class assignment, I'd probably give it a "D." JKeck (talk) 21:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I fully support the above opinion. Many of Aristotle's physical insights are perhaps very unusual for modern main-stream physics, but still involve a valuable line of thought. These old deep thinkers often recognized some important aspects of truths, even from a very modern and advanced perspective, and it would be a big mistake to vulgarize their insights with a naive statement that they show "no significant roots to any area of modern physics". This would be a very unscientific approach. We were already surprised for many times in physics and science by reincarnation of some very old ideas and remarkable emergence of some supposingly "obsolate" perspectives. So, the article do is in a bad need of improvements. ArepoEn (talk) 10:38, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Aristotle's Aether in Modern Physics

I read this article by Christopher Decaen some time ago and it goes some distance to vindicating Aristotle's notion of aether. You might consider including some of its ideas in the interest of completeness and neutrality. JKeck (talk) 01:01, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Wow, what a great article. I'd definitely like to include it here; also as a link, at least, at luminiferous aether. Thanks.—Machine Elf 1735 (talk) 23:16, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Great, glad you liked it. Got the link from here, where there are other papers of a similar attitude toward Aristotle and modern science. JKeck (talk) 21:14, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Consistency

Unless I'm mistaken, in the part about motion, "consistent" should be replaced by "inconsistent". Aristotle states that a fluid exerts friction on an object, thus slowing it down, so that's contradictory with the fact that the medium "permits" the motion. And indeed it is the opposite : when you throw a ball, the depression is in front of the ball, not in the back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edouardh (talk • contribs) 14:30, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Adherence rather than friction, no? For Aristotle, the engulfing medium is what accounts for the notion of place (not "space"), so it's not surprising that motion in terms of place depends on the medium. It's not entirely dissimilar to his account of heaviness and buoyancy but, whether or not it's what he really meant, it could be taken as a crude account of gliding, or even a propagating wave… so it's not contradictory. (Yes, he's suggesting that the density in front is communicated to the rarity in back; there's no need to try and "make it work", as if by suction).—Machine Elf 1735 18:53, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

POV and pseudoscience

Regarding the 4 Feb edit with summary: "established general principles of change that govern all natural bodies" is not generally believed + some of what he claimed is now held to be pseudoscience, like falling bodies - which is not mentioned clearly here

I agree with the edit earlier today that "pseudoscience" is a misnomer. Further, "general principles of change" is much too broad for "claims… like falling bodies", charitably understood. It accounts for any category of change (including that of quantity) vis-à-vis substance. What's not mentioned here is the marginalization of terminal velocity, but clearly "pseudoscience" has never been a term with which Aristotelian physics is to be tarred. In fact, a naïve account of scientific revolution considers it popper science, (er… proper, rather). In any case, it predates these debates by millenia, so perhaps rehearsing them here won't be necessary, however underrepresented one believes their point of view has been.—Machine Elf 1735 08:40, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

On Aristotelian motion

Additional information will be helpful on Aristotelian motion even though I have added some more information. Comparing Aristotle's view with other contemporaries like Galileo will also make this section of the article better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thywob (talk • contribs) 17:13, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Your addition to motion seems beneficial. I think you should consider breaking the four types of motion into bullet points or something a little easier to read than a paragraph format. Also, have you checked to see if the article mentions violent motion? Stev6675 (talk) 06:17, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I changed the words "as early as Galileo" in the final sentence of this section, but it was immediately reverted (and I don't know why). I notice that Thywob describes Galileo as one of Aristotle's "contemporaries" and I wonder if there is perhaps a mistaken idea of how many centuries separated Aristotle and Galileo? Thomas Peardew (talk) 10:11, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Note

The phases of Mercury are mentioned in the article as part of Galileo's attack on Aristotle. A nearly full set of phases of Mercury was first seen by Zupi in 1639, not by Galileo. Mercury's phases might have been suspected before then. This suspicion is hardly actual disproof of Aristotle or anyone else. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.131.249.221 (talk) 09:42, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Harriot noted that the moon's surface was irregular. This was against Aristotle's theory and four months before Galileo's similar observations of the moon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.131.249.221 (talk) 09:55, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Natural Motion and Inertia

Currently (10/2015), in the section "Natural Motion," the article claims that: 'Contrary to what is commonly believed, Aristotle taught that, if unopposed, an object set in motion will continue in that motion because there is no reason why it should stop.[23] He may consequently be considered the originator of the law of inertia or "Newton's first law of motion".' The citation is to Aristotle's Physics, book IV, section 8, on the existence of a void. The section cited is NOT what Aristotle is proposing as true, but rather what he sees as an incorrect consequence to a mistaken idea about voids. The gist is that "if there was a void, then there would be no impediment to motion, and that's wrong so therefore obviously there is no void." As it stands, the article is stating incorrectly that Aristotle conceived of as true and taught something akin to inertia. It is interesting that he proposes something very similar to inertia as incorrect, and perhaps that is worth mentioning, but we should not say that Aristotle thought that an object set in motion will continue in motion. Samhelyar (talk) 21:14, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

I changed it. If anyone wants to read the relevant section, I expect that they will agree. If not, I guess I'll see them on the playground. Or here.Samhelyar (talk) 18:19, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
I wrote the remarks you deleted.
1) In saying that I am wrong you are presumably supporting the common view that Aristotle said things naturally slow down. Could you suppy a quotation from Aristotle where he says this? Unless you do I cannot accept your criticism.
2) I see Aristotle's thinking as similar to Newtons (or vice versa - Newton is known to have studied Aristotle) Newtons law of inertia says a body continues in its motion UNLESS acted on by a force. So if we see a body slowing down we see that as due to a force; we do not say the law of inertia is disproved. Aristotle says if a body moved in a void it would continue in its motion But we see it slowing down hence it is not moving in a void - there is an impediment to the motion. Do you know differently?
3) There is a statement by DesCartes predating Newton with similar wording to Aristotle:
'If it is at rest we do not believe that it will ever begin to move, unless impelled by some other cause. Moreover, there is no more reason for to think that once moved it will ever, of its own accord and if it is not hindered by anything else, cease that motion'. (The first sentence here follows a statement in The Heavens, book 13) [DesCartes: Principia 1644]JFB80 (talk) 03:56, 10 October 2015 (UTC)
I think the issue is the claim that Aristotle taught the law of inertia as a property of moving bodies.
1) Descartes or Newton or Galileo necessarily abstract the motion of bodies from the complexities of nature in seeking mechanical properties. For Aristotle, that abstraction from nature seems to be fundamentally invalid, and the quest for mechanical properties seems outside the scope of his inquiry. Aristotle is an excellent observational scientist (his animal studies, for example, are impressive and obviously based on careful observation), but he is not a mechanic. He doesn't spend his inquiry in isolating or mathematizng such properties. His definition of motion is the actualization of potentials as potential - for bodies it's the movement of movables as movables.
2) Newton surely studied Aristotle. As did the entirety of Enlightenment philosophers and scientists from Bacon onward who spent so much time explicitly disagreeing with his methods of thinking and the consequent results. In his Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, Galileo makes exactly the contested disagreement against Aristotle's phsyics while discussing the horizontal and vertical motions of a stone falling from the mast of a moving ship. I doubt that anyone is arguing that objects slowing down disproves inertia. That would be a strange claim, indeed. The argument is whether, against the general opinion (including against the explicit opinion of Galileo on this subject), Aristotle originated and taught as true the law of inertia. It seems that he instead, able thinker that he was, perceived it as an incorrect consequence to an illogical viewpoint. Aristotle attributed the motion of a rock thrown to the medium of the air as being responsible for its continued motion. The impressed force from the thrower is not maintained in the rock, because it is not the natural motion (which is to fall) of the rock and can not be transferred to the rock. This seems other than inertia.
3) Yes, Descartes describes inertia and even centripetal force in The World, published in 1664 (though written before 1633). In the same work he asserts that philosophers believed otherwise about motion (re:inertia). He refers directly to Aristotle's definition of motion (actuality of a potential as potential) when he brings up the philosopher's beliefs about motion. Descartes, too, seems to claim explicitly that Aristotle's view of motion is not reconcilable with the law of inertia. The mechanical advances of enlightenment natural philosophy are largely thanks to a rejection of Aristotelian science of general definitions (Bacon calls it deduction) in favor of a Euclidean system of definitions leading to propositions (Bacon calls it induction). It is the focusing on the particular as isolated from the whole that most clearly separates them from Aristotle and that allows them to determine the laws of inertia and mechanics in general. Aristotle approaches motion from the most general terms possible, in the same way that he approaches the rest of his physics. That is why Aristotle's definition of motion is applicable to projectiles, to learning, to aging, and to anything else that changes.
Aristotle is obviously a giant of Western thought, and rightfully so in my opinion. I think it is very interesting that he offhandedly as the consequence of an absurdity so closely describes inertia. I do not think that that is to say Aristotle believes or teaches the law of inertia as true. I think that we should be very careful in saying that something is, 'in opposition to general opinion,' a truth of Aristotle's teaching. Moreso when that general opinion is expressed by Galileo or Descartes, also rightful giants of Western thought, who are likely better students of Aristotle than you or I.Samhelyar (talk) 05:40, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for your detailed remarks but again they are just your opinion unsupported by actual references and quotations. I asked where did Aristotle state the commonly held view that the natural motion of moving bodies is to slow down? You say that Galileo explicitly said that Aristotle did not state the law of inertia. But where and when? I gave actual quotations JFB80 (talk) 18:44, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Aristotelian_physics/Archive_2&oldid=1267329761"