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Untitled

No merge: there is a need for a cover term for Greek speaking Muslims who are and are not Pontian. Opoudjis 01:15, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Requested move 2006

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Greek-speaking Muslims → Greek Muslims — The current title is a pleonasm, really. While it is accurate and highlights the fact that very few of these people (and probably none in Turkey), espouse a Greek national identity, they are more often referred to as Greek Muslims, and the Greek Muslims which form part of the Muslim minority in Greece are also referred to as Greek Muslims in Greece, e.g. in this quote from Eleftherotypia [1]: Greek Muslims, Pomaks and Muslims of Turkish origin and national consciousness live in Greece after all. I think that as we have an article on Macedonian Muslims (despite the fact that many of these people, and almost all of them in Albania, espouse an Albanian or other non-ethnic Macedonian national identity), I think that this move should be performed. This move does not risk confusion with the article on the Muslim minority in Greece (which the government accepts is multiethnic [2]) - I have proposed a move on the talk page of that article as well (see Talk:Greek Muslim minority) - and if any ambiguity occurs in this inherently ambiguous area, it can resolved with a disambiguation note. Finally, a Google test seems to show that this name is more common even for the Greek-speaking Muslims in Turkey [3] [4]. --Tēlex 19:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
  • Support --Tēlex 19:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support ,per Telex. I may also be able to add some comments, if it will be necessary. --Hectorian 23:58, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Neutral I don't have time to look into this thoroughly, at the moment the page strikes me as a disambiguation page, if we move the "The term can also refer to the Greek-speaking Muslims in Greece, who along with ethnic Turks, Pomaks and other ethnic groups, form part of the Muslim minority" up to the top, and drop the external links and see also. Judging from the content of the article, there isn't much to be gained from treating these diverse groups in a single article. If this is changed into a disambig I would probably vote support, as there is no harm at having it at either. - FrancisTyers · 14:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
    It's rather straightforward. The article should deal with Muslims of Greek ethnic origin. There are of course many different groups, such as the indigenous to Turkey Pontic speaking Muslims of Pontos, and the Muslims who arrived with the population exchanges, as well as the Greek Muslims still within Greece. I agree that there's not much to write on the topic, as the literature is rather slim, but there's no point in having it as a disambiguation page. There's not much to write about certain groups, so seperate articles on them probably wouldn't exceed four lines. --Tēlex 16:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Could still do with splitting out into sections — if you insist as keeping it as one page :) - FrancisTyers · 10:55, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I'll see what I can do. --Tēlex 10:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

numbers

their are more than 7.000.000 greek muslims in turkey. [5]

Discussion

Add any additional comments

I don't know, honestly, and I'm not even certain that Macedonian Muslims was a brilliant idea, even if I appreciate the simplicity of the solution you propose. Also, giving a look to scholarship through Google Print, I noted that "Greek muslims" (or "Muslim Greeks") is simply always used for the Greek muslim minority, and never for "Greek-speaking Muslims". The latter instead seems to be used in scholarship [6].--Aldux 00:46, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

"Muslim Greeks" is also widely used for the Greek-speaking Muslims in Turkey [7], it's just that technically, Greek Muslims is the term used by Greeks (Έλληνες Μουσουλμάνοι) and Turks (Yunan Müslümanları). Also, if you check a few of those results, they are referring to the Greek-speaking Muslims, e.g. [8] and [9] (which distinguishes between Greek Muslims and non-Greek Muslims in Turkey). Also, technically, Greek-speaking Muslims may be inaccurate, because the so-called Greek-speaking Muslims in Greece and Turkey are bilingual in Greek and Turkish (as are the Turks in Greece), and the only distinction is what is used as a home language. Other groups such as Pomaks and Roma have their own languages in addition to Greek and Turkish, although strictly only Turkish is ever used in worship. As I said, it will be ambiguous, and that's why a disambiguation note will be necessary: Greek Muslims (in the sense of Greek-speaking Muslims) only form part of the Greek Muslim minority (who are also sometimes referred to as Greek Muslims). The term Greek speaking Muslims in never used in Greece or for the Greek-speaking Muslim in Greece, whereas Greek Muslims can be used for the Greek-speaking Muslim in Turkey. --Tēlex 12:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
We don't use any wording like "Yunan Müslümanları" (Greek Muslims) in Turkish at all. We call the Turks in Greece as "Batı Trakya Türkleri" (Western Thrace Turks). I beg you please let's not go into another fight on these things. --Gokhan 16:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not talking about the Turks of Western Thrace. I'm talking about the Greek speaking Muslims of Trabzon. --Tēlex 16:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
OK I'm so sorry! I misunderstood. I should be more careful. --Gokhan 20:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Crypto-Christians

Aldux, this is an urban legend, myth, fairy tale etc. Hardly anyone takes it seriously! --Tēlex 16:43, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Oops, sorry, but you never know what a country can take seriously, even if it is absurd. After all, I come from a country where conspiration theories are all to popular.--Aldux 23:53, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Cyprus

When I edited the section about Cypriots, it was only pertaining to Muslim Cypriots who had emigrated to Turkey. Now, as the article is rebuilt to be also related to ones in Cyprus, it needs new edits of the section. Before the "turkification" campaigns of Turkish Resistance Organisation and Denktaş governments, a considerable number of Turkish Cypriots had Greek as their mother tongue. In fact, about 60 % of the names of Turkish villages were in Greek. Is there any information about the current Greek-speaking Turkish Cypriot population in Cyprus? An example is Louroujina where there is also a fast linguistic assimilation going on. However, I am not sure whether even the people of Louroujina may qualify as "Greek Muslims" because they are considered to be of Linobambaki origins core of whom were composed by "Latins" and (to a smaller extent) Maronites rather than Greeks. Anyway, contributions on the subject will be much appreciated. --Behemoth 17:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Figure by Vyron Kotzamanis

The English language Greek source (Athens News Agency) claims that the population of "ethnic Greeks" is over 5,000. However, a more detailed coverage on the event by the Turkish daily Milliyet reports that the exact figure given by Kotzamanis is at 4,720 and he had also declared that the community is on the way to have a large portion of it composed of "people from Antakya" (i.e. Arabic-speaking and originally of the Antiochian Church). [10] I also recall that an education expert (a Greek woman from Istanbul who resides in Greece) asserted that about half of students attending Greek Orthodox schools in Istanbul are "from Antakya". I think the reference should be revised accordingly. --Behemoth 11:02, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

About those arabic-speaking from the south [11]. --Hectorian 23:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The title should be Muslim populations in Greece

...and should mention and direct towards under separate articles for,

the actual communities,

  • The Muslim community in Western Thrace (autochtonous; who are treated at present in the same article with recent immigrants which is an oddity, since they have a distinct legal status and cultural arguments)
  • The Muslim community in some Dodecanese islands (Rhodes and Kos) (some 5000 people according to my sources; note that I intend to start an article on them some time when I have time)
  • Immigration to Greece (recent immigrants; possibly with subheadings covering specific cases, for example, Albanian immigration to Greece)

historical communities,

historical communities further back, some retaining distinct features,

  • Turks of Macedonia centered around Salonica(Macedonia in the sense of the historical region and the Ottoman province here) (mostly monolingual in Turkish) (till the 1922 Population Exchange and slightly before) (note that we, some Turkish users, intend to use the article on Rumelia for the subject)
  • Sabbateans of Salonica (till the 1922 Population Exchange and slightly before)
  • Cretan Turks (formerly mostly bilingual in Turkish and Cretan Greek) (till the 1922 Population Exchange and slightly before)
  • Muslims of Epirus (Yanyalı in Turkish) (possibly including pockets in Thessaly) (once again, formerly mostly bilingual in Turkish and Greek)) (till the 1922 Population Exchange and slightly before)

and if you wish to go further back,

Note that for Yanyalı and Moralı populations, I am not sure that there is adequately distinctive material to define them under their own articles.

and finally a separate heading for the tie with,

  • Pontic Greek-speaking populations of some of Turkey's Black Sea districts (under a distinct and proper heading)

I won't comment on the present title of the article, except to say that it sounds hollow to me.

Cretanforever

I think u have misunderstood the article's title... it is not about the muslim population in Greece (for those, see Islam in Greece, but it's about Greek-speaking, Greek-identifying, or of Greek origins muslim populations elsewhere... --Hectorian 23:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

As I said, I won't comment on the title, except to say that Greek-speaking, Greek-identifying, or of Greek origins, sounds hollow to me (as it is indirectly stated inside the article self). We all engage in exercises that please us:) Any objections on me starting (in middle-term) specific articles on Western Thrace and Dodecanese Muslims? Islam in Greece is a fairly ineadequate, general scope. Cretanforever

Keep in mind that we also have Minority groups in Greece; maybe you should work on the Turkish section there. That said, an article on the Turkish minority wouldn't be a bad idea, if it speaks only of the Turks, without pretending to create a fork of Islam in Greece. As an article on the Thracian muslims, we once had such an article, but it was thought better to merge it with Islam in Greece.--Aldux 00:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, u should comment on the articles title, before commenting in all it deals with. i mean, the things u posted about Cham Albanians and the recent muslim immigrants, are totally irrelevant with this article... Anyway, i wouldn't have any objections about u starting the articles u said. i'll wait and see the way u'll edit, and i will comment afterwards. Taking into consideration your history as an editor in graeco-turkish related articles (Chrysostomos of Smyrna, Cretan Turks), i don't think i will have "many" bad comments to say. --Hectorian 00:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Btw, if u are about to begin an article about the muslims from Ioannina (Yanyalı), have in mind that there were many who resided in Thessaly, and they had an important role in the society and history of the Thessalian plain. I am more than anything else interested in Thessaly, so, i will be greatly involved in such an article... --Hectorian 00:47, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, this was built by your former neighbours Hectorian. [12] It is in İzmir. The family that built it (the family Kardiçalı - which means, from Karditsa) are still prominent in the city's commerce. But I will have to see if there is anything that can be written on Yanyalı that would still have relevance. They have, for the most part, infused inside the mass and dissappeared as such (a little like the Moralı but through a different processus). So I will, at some time, start an article on the Turks of Western Thrace and Dodecanese Muslims (or even Dodecanese Turks if you prefer it that way:) Cretanforever

I did not know that the Yanyalı are still ovious in Turkey (even in a small extend, as u said):). If my 'preference' would make any difference, i would prefer Dodecanese Muslims, or Dodecanese Turks (with the note that all muslims in the Ottoman Empire where called 'Turks' when they acquired that name). --Hectorian 01:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I will title it "Turks of the Dodecanese" with redirects from all possible variants employing the words Muslim or Rhodes or Kos (because in Turkish, to cite, Rodos Türkleri (Turks of Rhodes) would be the more common use), and I will stress that all are bilingual Greek-Turkish in all aspects. It is worth being written because there are some notable personalities issued from the community. Cretanforever

Do not forget to do what u did in Cretan Turks: Related ethnic groups: Greeks. --Hectorian 02:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Yanyalılar

Moved from article. Aramgar (talk) 20:07, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

"Yanyalılar" were turkish people. Not muslim greeks. Their roots came to Ioannina from Anatolia when the city conquested by Sultan II. Murad in 1432.

Hello, do you have any informations about Muslims from Grevena/Kozani region?They used to have the name Βαλαήs/Vala-ís in greek. thanks

Hi, my grandmother is of Greek ethnicity living in Istanbul. I know for a fact she is a Muslim, but her mother tongue is Greek and her Turkish is broken and poor. So.. it is true. Turkish peoples hide their true origins if they are not ethnic Turks. eg. My whole family. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.208.84.15 (talk) 03:10, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Russian emperess

In 1777–1778, when Catherine the Great of Russia conquered the peninsula from the Ottoman Empire, the local Orthodox population was forcibly deported and settled north of the Azov Sea. In order to avoid deportation, some Greeks chose to convert to Islam. - sorry this sentence doesnt make sense, why would emperess of orthodox country deport one of its own? Luka Jačov (talk) 19:09, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

citation 4

Can we replace it with "citation needed"? The page it cites gives its source as "internet", which could just as well be wikipedia. Thus, isn't this kind of the equivelant of starting a geocities account with my opinions and then editing wikipedia to match it and claiming its not NPOV because I have a site?

Yeah, c'mon guys, you can do better than that. Theoretically. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.107.214.133 (talk) 18:17, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Problem?

The Pontic issue is currently the second most important problem in Turkey, after the Kurdish one, and there is an ongoing campaign to eradigate this dialect from the younger generations. Ok I see there is problem with insurgency? But second problem is some almost extinct linguistic group still speakin their language? is that true? if it is then what kind of country Turkey is? can anyone provide references? is problem maybe to harsh word? i guess turkey has bigger problems,like economic ones for example and not campaigning for eradication of some ancient dialect(this upset me alot). anyway references please... Luka Jačov (talk) 19:02, 11 November 2008 (UTC) I hava friend whose grandmother was a Greek speaking Moslem woman...straight from Iannina. She was forced to move to Anatolia and once there, eventually married a Yoruk. Their daughter in turn...married a Hercegovinian refugee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.119.171.5 (talk) 00:51, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Citation 3

The section on "reasons for converting to Islam" strikes this user as just a bit bizarre. It seems to quote excessively from one source and the disparity of the citations used make it look as though there was some sort of retaliatory exchange between Christians and Muslims on the subject. I don't want to touch it as I would be far from neutral myself, but it does seem as though someone wrote it with an Islamic agenda in mind and then a Christian retaliated by inserting one damning selective quote... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.100.154.134 (talk) 12:32, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Obviously biased "Reasons for conversion to Islam"

I agree with the previous comment that this paragraph almost preaches Islam. It is based on a single reference and refers to the supposed "superiority" of the muslim faith that cannot explain at all the long resistance of christian populations to conversion in the Balkans and elsewhere. In addition, balkan Muslims, e.g. Albanians, are rather religiously indifferent, showing that the presented arguments are invalid. It would be interesting to find sources with numbers of converted Christians during the Ottoman Empire.87.147.72.140 (talk) 20:10, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with both IP editors. The tone and tenor of the section is way over the top, as are the block quotes. There is no need to use such block quotes, especially from a source that 100 years old. While some of the material can stay, I have removed the grossly POV parts. Athenean (talk) 23:00, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

List about non converts

There are three lists in the article. I haven't checked the sources . But the last one about the converts seems like a convenient list in this article. But what about the first two ? Muslims of Greek descent (non-conversions) ? These two lists are about people whose mother tongues are Ottoman Turkish and were born in typical Ottoman Muslim house . The only thing which relates them to Greek descent was that some of their anchestors were of Greek origin. I don't think these racially oriented lists have anything to do with the text of the article. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:05, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Greeks or Albanians?

It should be noted that many, if not most, of these names are of individuals who were of Arvanite Albanian descent, or mix Arvanite-Greek descent, and not purely Greek, such as those surnamed Pasha, all of whom were Albanian.

Before the twilight of the Ottoman Empire, many ethnic Albanians inhabited Greek Epirus and other parts of Greece, they spoke Greek, in addition to their peculiar dialect of Albanian, and identified as Albanian. We should also stress that it was exceptionally, exceptionally rare that Greeks would convert to Islam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.201.173.75 (talk) 23:54, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Thessalian and Southern Greek Muslims

The sources do not say if these individuals were indeed ethnic Greeks or spoke Greek. The situation might have been similar like in Crete, but we would need more sources.  Andreas  (T) 21:00, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


Requested move 24 February 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved - Stability of the article at it's current title since July 2006 is the driving factor here. Despite a few cogent arguments on both sides, there's no overwhelming consensus to move to new title and the article can have only one title. My suggestion is to make the appropriate adjustments within the article to clarify any misconceptions. This is more a content issue than a title issue. Mike Cline (talk) 13:55, 26 March 2015 (UTC)


Greek Muslims → Greek-speaking Muslims – The title of the article infers that people who are Greek speaking and Muslim are Greeks, when their unique communities now resident in Turkey have historically not identified with Greek identity. It represents an erroneous position, which when it comes to other similar communities with complex linguistic and other identities (like the Arvanites or Slavic speakers in Greece), they are not referred to as Albanians, or Macedonians/Bulgarians, because people within those communities may disagree with such names. For more see below:relisted --Mike Cline (talk) 14:09, 4 March 2015 (UTC) For more see below: Relisted. Resnjari (talk) 16:10, 18 April 2015 (UTC) Resnjari (talk) 15:24, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I understand that the former article's name is a pleonasm. Nonetheless the name Greek-speaking Muslims is "accurate" and importantly "highlights the fact that very few of these people (and probably none in Turkey), espouse a Greek national identity". There are articles on wikipedia in relation to Greece's linguistic minorities(some say they are ethnic too) that are pleonastic. For example Albanian-speakers of Western Thrace or Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia. However since it is a contentious issue and that people from that community may or may not identify as a separate people, those names are seen best representative regarding the issue of what to call or describe them. The same should apply here also regarding Greek speaking Muslims. By calling these people "Greek Muslims", we are implying nationalistic notions that these people have an affinity with Greek identity. Yes they are Greek speaking and yes they used self appellations for themselves that Orthodox Greek speakers used for themselves: namely Romeieka for language and Romeios for self identification. Nonetheless, they did not identify with the modern Greek state or had produced people who were Greek nationalists and so on. As many Greeks on Wikipedia would remind Albanians and Macedonian contributors, just because some may speak a certain language and even use a self appellation on a local level does not make them affiliated to that nation, ethnicity or other in a modern sense. Most of these people are resident in Turkey and feel Turk even if they speak Greek dialects amongst themselves. They use the word Rumca to describe their language. Using a Greek source as an example to name these people is a little surreal. It would be like using Macedonian or Albanian sources to name Slavic speaking communities or Orthodox Albanian speaking communities in Greece on wikipedia with terminology that is concurrent in their socio-political or academic discourse, but which does not (fully) reflect the realities of those people today. Moreover, use of the Macedonian Muslims as an example does not suffice here, as a sizable portion of their community do share an affinity with the larger Macedonian identity and do use the self appellation of Macedonian Muslim for themselves. I ask fellow wikipedians to take these issues into consideration and conduct themselves with diligence on the matter. Edward Said once talked of Orientalism, of outsiders coming in and describing, using terminology for the Middle East that suited and made things appear easier for them without taking consideration of local peoples complexities. The title of this page Greek Muslims could be considered by Greek speaking Muslims as such a form of Orientalism. I ask that this page be renamed Greek-speaking Muslims as it is devoid of nationalistic connotations and reflect best the complex and accurate feelings of this community....

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~
  • Support --(Resnjari (talk) 06:24, 24 February 2015 (UTC))
  • Good idea remove nationalisms is best for neutral. Togashi Yuuta (talk) 05:43, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose the article states many do not speak Greek. Suggest Muslims of Greek descent instead -- 70.51.200.101 (talk) 06:13, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
    Yes though the article does specify that a sizable portion do not speak Greek today, many still do, but they just do not describe themselves or more importantly have an affinity to being Greek. For example the current Turkish deputy prime minister Bülent Arınç is a descendant of Cretan Greek speaking Muslims and can speak the Greek Cretan dialect. In recent times with some reporters nearby him when he went back to his home town on the coast in Turkey, he greeted small children there in Greek, and conversed with his relatives in Greek. Nonetheless he does not feel Greek (see Youtube clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWEdXDl_tv4 and article: Arınç Ahmediye köyünde çocuklarla Rumca konuştu http://www.milliyet.com.tr/arinc-ahmediye-koyunde-cocuklarla-rumca-konustu/siyaset/siyasetdetay/23.09.2012/1600667/default.htm . To rename this article as Muslims of Greek descent is also problematic because it implies that Greek identity in a modern sense (in the age of the nation state and nationalism) was already formed when they converted, which would be obscuring the complex processes regarding what was 'Greek identity' 2, 3, 4 or 5 hundred years ago. Though i understand your view point, there is no article on wikipedia named Orthodox people of Albanian descent in Greece for Arvanites or Orthodox Slavic people of Macedonian/Bulgarian descent in Greece for the Slavic speakers in Greece. The reason why language would be the best alternative for the article heading is that at some point in time or even now, the Greek language was a overriding factor that made these people unique and formed a unity in their groupings according to geography. But in no way did they consider themselves "Greek". Same applies say for the Arvanites who disavow any connections to Albanians, though they share the same language with each other. I still think that "Greek speaking Muslims" is a preferred title for this page as it is removed from any problematic or perceived biases, and allows the contents pertaining to this community to be written with scholarly integrity. (Resnjari (talk) 16:54, 25 February 2015 (UTC))
"Muslims of Greek descent" does not depend on people recognizing themselves as Greek. It merely needs descent. "Muslims of Greek extraction" similarly does not need self-identification as "Greek", merely a relationship in history. Muslim Greeks and Greek Muslims and Islamic Greeks are shorter, but would seem to indicate a closer relationship. -- 70.51.200.101 (talk) 00:30, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
The contents of the article refer to descent, why the need to refer to it in the title. Though i understand where your coming from with this, a precedent has already been established with regards to the Arvanites and Slavic speakers in Greece and articles relating to them. There as the Greek editors have time and time again shown and rightly so that those people don't identify with such self appellations, even though they are of Albanian and Bulgarian/Macedonian descent respectfully and thus the title pages are not Orthodox Albanians in Greece or Bulgarian/Macedonians in Greece. The same should apply for this community and the most neutral title is Greek speaking Muslims as their language, apart from their past and current geographic location is what makes them a distinctive group. We should be fair and impartial and not impose other labels for the sake of expediency. Even the Greek term for this community in the infobox on the main page is Ελληνόφωνοι μουσουλμάνοι which translates to Greek speaking Muslims. I also think that this page should be linked to the Turkey portal on Wikipedia as well, considering that this community has historically identified as Turks and that most of them reside in Turkey today and play an important role in their society and not Greece's. Resnjari (talk) 11:17, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Per original move discussion of 2006. The phrase Greek Muslims is open to several interpretations which holds (more or less) for the group of people the article discusses; but neither Greek-speaking Muslims nor Muslims of Greek descent would be cent percent accurate while they have very rigid meaning. – nafSadh did say 00:17, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
    Though your right that the article is open to numerous interpretations, in the end the title Greek Muslims implies that the people discussed here are "Greek" in national affinity and feeling with the addition of religion, namely Islam. As is discussed in the article, apart from recent converts to Islam, say Cat Stevens who acknowledges his Greek heritage, the main and in many cases only common denominator amongst these communities was the Greek language, not identity or a feeling of being Greek. The overwhelming majority espoused a Ottoman and later Turkish identity. They even do not refer to their language as 'elenika', but use Turkish terms such as 'Rumca'. Regarding other complex ethno-linguistic communities in Greece for example, the title pages are not Orthodox Albanians in Greece, but Arvanites or Albanian-speakers of Western Thrace because the only factor that makes them unique from the Greeks is their language and also say their geographic location. They firmly disavow any connections with Albanians, especially the Muslim ones. My point is that one standard cannot be applied to other complex socio-linguistic groups, while another for this community. If other pages are named as so and so 'speaking' community, then so should this page. Is there data or any information to confirm that they feel Greek (and not a few isolated cases here or there, but the majority of these groups) for the title to remain? If there is, i would like to see it. In fact throughout the article, repeatedly its affirmed that they feel anything but Greek. Hence renaming the article Greek speaking Muslims is the most neutral title that best reflects the complex issues pertaining to these communities. The Google results cited by Telex for example about the usage of the word 'Greek Muslims' are much more limited. Moreover the two book citations that are given are written by Greek authors. For example in Albanian, Arvanites and other Albanian speakers are called Albanians, which obviously has no merit when naming or talking about Albanian speaking people in Greece. And though the community is bilingual or part of it today (the older generations), the same is true say of the Slavic speakers or Albanian speakers in Greece, yet their wikipedia titles refer to their speech self appellations, not any other. Thus if one was to do a Google search: https://www.google.com.tr/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Rumca for the word 'Rumca' for example, we get over 212.000.000 hits. Should we not at the very least reflect the views of the community instead of imposing outside definitions for these people. And even though the discussion was held in 2006 regarding the name change, it was done so as to make the name more shorter. The complexities of these other issues that i bring up, don't seem to have been put into consideration at that time. Resnjari (talk) 13:46, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Neutral towards oppose. First of all this article seems to mix a lot of things and a lot of different eras. The common defining factor seems to be people of Greek ethnicity or ascendency (not language) that are of Muslim faith wherever they live or lived, and certainly not the Greek minority in Turkey. Also, comments tending to disqualify Greek sources over Turkish ones are out of the point. Lastly, Greek ethnicity does not imply Greek nationality or Greek "national affinity" whatever that means (the Greek State never succeeded in gathering all ethnic Greeks inside its borders, esp. in Cyprus), so the current title is just fine. Place Clichy (talk) 16:54, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
    The article here talks about groups of people who had Greek as a mother tongue when they converted to Islam. It is from that time onward that their communities began to take on the formations of a separate community and group. The contents deal with those events onward, not before. Or to put it more succinctly, its when these people began to diverge from their Greek speaking Christian neighbours, regarding identity. The issue is not about them being of "Greek ethnicity or ascendency" and nor is that disputed. Yet to call them Greek is to be disingenuous. For one, they all lived under the Ottoman state. They called themselves Romios, a Byzantine self appellation used by Orthodox Greek speakers also. With the rise of 19th century nationalism, Orthodox Greek speakers abandoned that term in favour of elenika to connect them with an ancient past. That process never occurred amongst Muslim Greek speakers. Moreover, they considered themselves as Ottomans (Osmanli) and after 1923, as Turks. Furthermore, your comment about the Greek state not gathering all ethnic Greeks inside its borders is subject to interpretation. I am not here to engage in nationalistic rhetoric or the past failed dreams of others. It is precisely this point about nationalistic overtones or misconceptions that i made before (which is in your commentary) that may be inferred about Greek speaking Muslims in the title as forming some kind of irredenta or even long lost Greeks. My point is they don't consider themselves Greek. They spoke and many still do speak Greek and that is the distinctive attribute with the addition of geography that gives them formation and emergence as new group. And importantly even within the parameters of Greek nationalism, it did not bother to court Greek speaking Muslims into its ranks or to define them as fellow Greeks. Instead it went after other Orthodox people, who spoke Albanian, Bulgarian/Macedonian and Vlach and called them fellow Greeks. The descendants of these people would not have it any other way and is importantly reflected as such on wikipedia articles dealing with those communities. It is only language that gave them a distinctiveness. "Also, comments tending to disqualify Greek sources over Turkish ones are out of the point." What? Did you not read what i wrote? I stated quite clearly that Greek sources in Greece will uses terms that are applicable to Greek language discourse about those people. Turkish sources are important here, because most of these Muslim Greek speaking communities are in Turkey, not Greece and write about themselves. Does not their opinion come first as to what is best for them? And to be historically correct, the most these people ever experienced being within a Greek state was for 10 years, before their Greek speaking nation state decided to send them to Turkey in the exchange of populations of 1923. By the way, no one said that the article was about the Greek minority in Turkey. These people do not consider themselves as such and caution must be exercised not to impose political agendas here. Wikipedia is about facts. Those editors editing this article need to take that into consideration. Greek speaking Muslims is still the most neutral name for this article. Resnjari (talk) 07:25, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
I agree with a lot of what you say. It is true that this community was never an irredentism target for the short-lived Greek nationalism, the best proof is that they were sent away in the 1923 population exchange on grounds of religion. Actually, their Greek character was actually only underlined by later scholars new opinions surfaced about this exchange and the Greek-Turkish conflict. But this only adds to my confusion about your request. Nobody, not the article, nor its current title, implies that the current community in Turkey is disloyal to the Turkish state or a fifth-column of the Greek State, or I missed something. Also, the scope of the article goes way beyond the current community: it goes from the times of the Ottoman Empire and the devşirme to... Cat Stevens. In order to be the most WP:PRECISE and WP:CONCISE and cover the entire geographical and historical scope, the best (and neutral) title seems to me... Greek Muslims. Place Clichy (talk) 10:04, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
The main marker of these communities regarding their "Greek character" is their language. I am not disputing scholarly research. But it is they who state in their texts, which form the sources for this article that these people do not regard themselves as Greeks. Scholars also talk about the "Albanian" character of the Arvanites or the "Bulgarian/Macedonian" character of the Slavic speakers in Greece, yet the articles on wikipedia reflect the terminology that the communities themselves use, or at the very least neutral non provocative ones without agendas. Also i did not imply that somehow the article implies that these people were "disloyal Turks" or something along those lines. But if you do not include the important word speaking as the middle word in the title, then a person visiting the page will at first assume that the article is talking about Greeks who are Muslim, which is definitely not the case. All of these Greek speaking communities do not identify as Greeks. And yes there are the few in current times, (and i stress the few) who like Cat Stevens are of Greek heritage and may still identify as such, however, just because of those few that identify as such, it should not be the main indicator for imposing the term Greek on the rest of these people who only have Greek as a language, and do not have any ethno-affiliations to being Greek. The one main common factor that all these communities and individuals share is that they have Greek as a language that they speak. Its why the title Greek speaking Muslims does away with any bias issues and it is a neutral title which connects all these complex communities and individuals together, while stressing their main unique trait i.e: language. Resnjari (talk) 04:10, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

Relisting comment: Greek, Islam and Ethnic Group Wikiprojects notified of the relisting of this RM and asked for input. --Mike Cline (talk) 14:16, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I also notified Wikipedia:Greek and Turkish wikipedians cooperation board, although it does not seem to be very active these days. Place Clichy (talk) 10:04, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
Support: In the lede it reads; " Muslims of Greek ethnic origin whose adoption of Islam..." Well it may be just the opposite also. "Turks who kept their religion but adopted Greek language in an area where the majority of the population speak Greek." Thus Greek speaking Muslims is a better title. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 15:55, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
That still has the problem that many descendants of Greeks who are Muslim do not speak Greek but are still covered in this article. -- 70.51.200.101 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 05:37, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
The same can be said of the people regarding the article Albanian-speakers of Western Thrace or Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia. Yet the article names are considered the most neutral and best regarding describing their past/current group formation. Precedents on wikipedia already exist in this regard. Resnjari (talk) 11:02, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Though stability of the article has been chosen as the main impetus for keeping the title as it is, people who chose convenience back then as opposed to discussing the merits of such a change due to a lack of expertise has resulted in the title today being problematic. I feel that a more wide ranging debate needs to take place by others who either come from such communities themselves or have expertise in the area. These people, mostly feel Turkish and not Greek, as academic sources and the people themselves have declared. I have voiced my concern with the title of this article as it infers certain identities i.e. "Greek" about a people who want nothing to do with a Greek identity. Their only connection to Greek culture is through language which they call by a different name, either Romieka (not used by Orthodox Greeks today) and Rumca in Turkish. It would be like saying and naming articles in wikipedia which would infer that current day English speaking USA are "English" when they do not feel so, even though lets say of the sake of argument that someone had named an article as such; and for the sake of stability no change occurred to rectify it. The next step, in accordance with wikipedia policy would be to undertake Publicising discussions and seeing what discussions would manifest.

Resnjari (talk) 16:10, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

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