Talk:Greek Muslims/Archive 4

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A question

Does this page includes Turkish people who immigrated to Turkey after population exchange? Because this article is a bit, what should i say, made up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.171.198.1 (talk) 17:29, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Its not the content of the article that is an issue. Due to my edits, i have provided peer reviewed sources that clearly state these people only speak Greek but in no way do they identified as Greeks. They say outright and feel Turk. The issue with this article is the name of it. The title infers that they are Greek, which is wrong. These people are Greek speaking. That is a difference. I have done all i can,, its now time for editors of a Turkish and Muslim background to push for a title change.Resnjari (talk) 23:51, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

There is a difference between nationality and ethnicity. The sources you used also state reasons why people are unwilling to identify openly with a minority ethnicity in Turkey, especially towards foreign researchers. You fail to point out such nuances. There are also cases of individuals who do claim Pontic Greek cultural heritage (for instance writer Ömer Asan and singer Apolas Lermi, or myself and elderly Muslim Greek seakers I know), do you think it is wrong of them to identify in such a way? I think your conception of what constitutes Greekness is a bit nationalistic, which is in fact one of the reasons why many Pontian Greek Muslims are afraid to speak out (and what forces them into Turkish nationalism). NeoRetro (talk) 19:40, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

If you have peer reviewed sources on the matter, do so (and also provide inline's too). However most of the community identifies solely as Turks. What state processes lead to that is up to you to outline using peer reviewed sources. Nonetheless, today and starting from the 1980s when Western scholars did fieldwork amongst this community, people kept telling them they feel Turkish and only Turkish, not Greek.Resnjari (talk) 20:47, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

The scope of this article is not restricted to the period starting from the 1980s and the territory of the Republic of Turkey. Of course people from this community who live in Turkey, today, are faithful and lawful citizens of Turkey. It is you, Resnjari, repeating this again and again and again that give the opposite feeling (maybe it is your point of view, and as NeoRetro writes maybe your view on the subject is a bit nationalistic). Also, they probably speak Turkish more often than Greek in their daily lives. However, in a historical perspective, the Greek heritage is a defining element of this community, otherwise the title would be Turkish Muslims. Maybe Greek communities of Muslim faith, in all parts of the Ottoman empire and other countries, in all periods of time, should be the focus of inputs to this article. Place Clichy (talk) 15:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

All i am going to say is this. Back yourself up with peer reviewed scholarship like i have. Otherwise its opinion and wp:original research. Fieldwork regarding these communities has mainly started in the 1980s when questions about self-identification were put to Grecophone Muslim communities. Before that it is somewhat difficult to ascertain. Like i said to the previous editor, if you have peer reviewed material backing your point, then add it, otherwise, no. As for "they probably speak Turkish more often than Greek in their daily lives" i have fully cited it in the article that for a sizable minority (for the Pontic Grecophone Muslim community) that is not the case. Some do not have knowledge of Turkish at all due to their geographic isolation and conservatism. That said they still identify as Turk only and disavow any links to being Greek. Please base statements at least on facts and not conjecture. So just in case anything has been missed, when fieldwork has been done, the respondents from these communities have time and time again refused any identification with being Greek. That is fact and based on Western peer reviewed scholarship. And like Neoretro, I also know some number of people here in Melbourne from Grecophone Muslim communities and they are the most nationalistic of any Turks i have ever met. They feel they are Turks and that they do not even speak Yunanca (i.e Greek), but Rumca. That's how it is with them. They are Greek speaking Turks, as the scholarship bears out.Resnjari (talk) 16:00, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

You are employing the present tense ("they are...") and I keep trying to tell you about historical perspective vs. presentism. The subject of your, may I say, passion, is post-1980s Turkey, and we keep telling you that this is not (not only) the subject of this article. Ibrahim Edhem Pasha and Hayreddin Barbarossa were dead long before 1980, as were the first generation of Byzantines who converted after the Conquest (and they were totally Greek, while being Muslims). Place Clichy (talk) 18:50, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

If one was to look at the whole historical period of Anatolia going back say up to the Battle of Manzikert, Anatolia was Orthodox and Greek speaking and i have never denied that. Speros Vryonis in the wide-ranging study called The Decline of Medieval Hellenism in Asia Minor and the Process of Islamization from the Eleventh through the Fifteenth Century chronicled that process for the most part and very little of that analysis has been disproven (except issues of contestation have been it differed in some places over others etc). That process resulted in today current day Turkish population. Pockets of Greek speakers that became part of the Ottoman state much later like Trabzon, Crete, the Grevena valley of Macedonia etc converted to Islam, though did not undergo a linguistic and to some extent a full identity change (eg. retention of word for language Romeyka and at times self appellation of Romiaois). By the 20th century these people especially like the Cretans where very pro-Turkish. Also Greeks in Greece did not see Grecopohne Muslims as fellow compatriots, as outlined in the article. Now regarding for what you call "historical perspective", the article covers the modern era because most of the research on the community has occurred about and during the modern era. And when fieldwork had been conducted, Grecophone Muslims have over and over again told in no unequivocal terms that they are Turks, not Greeks. In the article the conversion process has already been outlined, if you have read it. What was missing in the past was what these people identified as today. The peer reviewed sources I added have filled that gap of contemporary times. These people overwhelmingly feel Turkish. Also about the first generation of converts of the medeevil era and thereafter, you have no peer reviewed sources explaining what they “felt” or how they defined Greek, if at all. So far its WP:original research. My “passion” as you call it is for facts and that the article reflects that even if information may not be to a other persons liking. If you want to edit the article, do so, any addition though must reflect peer reviewed material. This community to use their own designations feel Turk, are Musliims and only have knowledge/speak Greek.Resnjari (talk) 19:24, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

"Medievil era" ?? Have you read any of the sources you used? Because it doesn't seem like it. I never said anything about "the first group of converts". Anyway, that is 17th and 18th century... not the middle ages! "Also Greeks in Greece did not see Grecopohne Muslims as fellow compatriots, as outlined in the article." This depends on what source you read. "And when fieldwork had been conducted, Grecophone Muslims have over and over again told in no unequivocal terms that they are Turks, not Greeks." Yes. So? In national terms they are Turks and not Greeks. This has nothing to do with ethnic cultural heritage. NeoRetro (talk) 09:41, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes i did. From the 1400s onward the Ottoman state expanded into the Balkans proper and later Cyprus and the Trebizond state. Conversions started then and later with the passing of time accelerated in the 17th and 18th century, depending on the region and its sociopolitical circumstances. For example some number of the local elites where ones to convert first to preserve land and privileges in the late medieval period. Also if you see in my comments i was answering Place Clichy too alongside you. Regarding the compatriots matter, its Dr Peter Mackridge who states that. This is the same Mackridge who did fieldwork amongst Pontic Grecophone Muslim communities in the 1980s. You say there are other sources, if there are them bring them here (like i have said to other editors in times past, i will not do all the work). Make sure their peer reviewed and academic, See WP:reliable. This article needs more work done. Ethnic cultural heritage (regarding Romeyka language and so on) is Greek. No one denies that. But these Grecophone Muslim communities on a whole repeatedly feel and self identify as Turk as being their identity. You say there are individual cases to the contrary and i don't doubt that for one second, but you need to find sources that cite this. There are people from Grecophone Muslim communities that found this article offensive and wanted to even get rid of many references. On their talkpages i had to have lengthy discussions a long while ago about not doing that. There are conflicting views in the Grecophone Muslim communities (whether a minority or majority view/s). I prefer to go by peer reviewed scholarship, so as to avoid any quagmires and go by information as outlined by peer reviewed scholarship. So should all editors.Best.Resnjari (talk) 17:07, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

It is quite sad, the generalizing statements you make like "That's how it is with them." Who exactly do you think you are, to be entitled to decide for other people what their identity is? NeoRetro (talk) 16:36, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Grecophone Muslims. Very easy. The scholarship time and time again shows they identify as Turks. I go by that. Its all cited in the article in case there is any further queries. Same with say for example the Arvanites, they are Albanian speaking (well sometime back) Greeks. And that's how it is with them too as per the scholarship. I have always based myself by the scholarship. If anyone has an issue with that, email the scholars who do the research and discuss it with them.Resnjari (talk) 16:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Muslims Helens

Don't we think it is vandalism that many were erased by saying "partially greek no need to add to list" on wikipedia which is written by turks. Manaviko (talk) 17:54, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I am not sure what you mean by your comment regarding "vandalism". This article has barely even been touched by Turkish editors, though i welcome their contribution which is more than overdue. As for for myself i am of Albanian heritage. The article is based on peer reviewed material. Grecophone Muslims identify as Turks and not Hellenes just to clarify.Resnjari (talk) 10:57, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, how do you judge who is Turkish and who is not? Why are you in the business of judging other peoples ethnic background? Secondly, could you stop speaking in general terms about me and my family? You don't know us, so don't include us in your generalizations. NeoRetro (talk) 22:08, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

I do not talk in generalized terms. Scholars who have done fieldwork amongst Grecophone Muslim communities have stated in their peer reviewed works that these people state to them that they feel and identify as Turkish. Your experience of the matter is different to that outlined in peer reviewed literature, however to place something in this article that refers to Grecophone Muslims feeling Greek, you would need sources that meet wp:reliable and wp:secondary. Absent that, the rest is wp:original research. Otherwise if do things outside that, then all sorts of things can be placed in a article. Wikipedia has guidelines and polices, please refer to them as i have.Resnjari (talk) 10:03, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I think it extremely childish that you keep referring to rules. This is the talk page. You are generalizing and I find it offensive towards me personally.NeoRetro (talk) 10:08, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

To be clear: I never deleted anything you added to the page, and nowhere did I imply that we should add data that is not sourced. That you indicate otherwise dilutes the discussion. I merely oppose generalizing terms that you use regularly.NeoRetro (talk) 10:18, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

There is nothing "childish" or offensive. Wikipedia guidelines and its policies which are basically its rules states that content must be based on peer reviewed literature. See: wp:secondary. Grecophone Muslim communities in Turkey identify as Turks and Muslims. You are yet to present peer reviewed sources that contradict this. Your personal experience is your experience. However Wikipedia does not function on wp:original. If you ever encounter one of those scholars in your community undertaking fieldwork tell them that there are some few who don't identify as Turks. Until that view is expressed in scholarship, i go by what is written in it and not personal sentiment about what is right or not regarding what a community identifies themselves as.Resnjari (talk) 10:27, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I never suggested otherwise. I just oppose generalizing. I never said Muslim Greeks identify as Greeks (a modern nationalistic term that even some elderly Christian Pontic Greeks don't use to describe themselves). The literature you refer to also doesn't generalize the way you do. For instance, they refer to the differences in how Greek-speakers present themselves in-group, and towards the majority population. I have even given you a few examples of people that are open about their identity. There is a leftist Turkish pro-Pontic Facebook page with tens of thousands of likes. I'm not asking you to rewrite history, I'm just pointing out the fact that you are generalizing based on very thin claims. Instead of saying '[all] Muslim [Pontic] Greeks feel Turks' [period], you should say: "Researchers have found that most Muslim Greek speakers identify primarily as Turks, however, the number of respondents is usually limited to a handful of people."NeoRetro (talk) 10:47, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Facebook is not wp:reliable. Otherwise i, or anyone could use it as a "source" for multiple articles etc. I have never said that Grecophone Muslims emerged out of a Orthodox Greek speaking populace. Same for most Turks too. However as the peer reviewed sources state for contemporary times, over and over again, respondents from the communities have overwhelmingly stated that view to these researchers. To say that these communities call themselves "Greeks" without providing wp:reliable and wp:secondary is wp:POV. I go by what peer reviewed sources have stated, not what i "should" say. For this to be in the article > "however, the number of respondents is usually limited to a handful of people." you need wp:reliable sources.Resnjari (talk) 10:54, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

What are you talking about?? The number of respondents is given in the research that is cited itself. Have you read the sources on this page? Also, again, why do you keep implying that I would want the article to say they are Greek?? Where did you read this??? Also, I never suggested Facebook is a reliable source. I don't know how you got that idea. I have been on Wikipedia for 7 years, I know how it works...NeoRetro (talk) 10:59, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

You say you have given me examples on how people represent themselves, based on what you say. These researchers have spent time traversing those villages. Mackridge, Schreiber, Hakan and Bortone keep getting the same replies from Grecophone Pontic Muslims. There is no contradiction in this. As for "Also, again, why do you keep implying that I would want the article to say they are Greek?? Where did you read this??? Also, I never suggested Facebook is a reliable source." That you brought up Facebook to make your point is saying something toward that. Otherwise why bring it up. I can make a similar case for Arvanites etc. Some few individuals are ok with identifying as ALbanian. Agian that still is wp:original. As for the sources in the article, yes i am aware of them as i placed a great deal of them there with inlines. Also for having this, "however, the number of respondents is usually limited to a handful of people." if you feel that is the case and have identified that in all those scholars, find the page and inline for that. Bortone gives a general overview of what the Grecophone Pontic community feels which contradicts your few respondents answer. So you say you know how Wikipedia works, then find wp:reliable sources that affirm your position. I will not do work for other people.Resnjari (talk) 12:38, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

I never asked you to do so. I just ask you to stop generalizing. And I don't know why you keep discussing Albania. I don't care about that at all. "That you brought up Facebook to make your point is saying something toward that." No it is not. "These researchers have spent time traversing those villages." So have I, that doesn't mean anything. NeoRetro (talk) 20:09, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

"So have I, that doesn't mean anything." Yes it does. They are scholars who get their research published in peer reviewed publications and meet wp:reliable. All your giving me is wp:original research. As for Albania, i cite that because its similar, there are some few individuals who claim Albanian heritage amongst the Arvanites(i.e.the late Aristidhis Kolias etc),, bu that in no way speaks for the whole group as peer reviewed research states otherwise. Same with here. Find sources that sya there are people within the Grecophone Muslim community who have different ways of viewing thier identity etc.Resnjari (talk) 03:32, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

Reasons For Conversion

I dispute the source used for this statement: "or simply because of the corruption of the Greek clergy.[13]" The source comes from The preaching of Islam: a history of the propagation of the Muslim faith by Thomas Walker Arnold published in 1896. Wikipedia strongly encourages the use of secondary sources especially for controversial, or strong claims. The claim in question is strong, and the source is biased for two reasons, which is enabled by the fact that it was published 120 years ago. A. This is a field this author brought about, this is one important to him, as such it is important for him to stress the importance of it, especially in regards to other ideologies of the times. B. Biases in the west against Eastern Orthodoxy. If a modern peer reviewed source can't be found, I'm going to nix it. I've read the cited pages, and Thomas Walker Arnold merely states stuff, the best provided is often the name of some person who he got the information from, in this way his history is very much like that of Herodotus, and makes this history more bare in line with a primary source, as opposed to a secondary. Sorry if this explanation is convoluted, it's 0:17 where I live, and I'm quite tired. (Alcibiades979 (talk) 22:17, 20 May 2016 (UTC))

The problem with Arnold is not that he is a secondary source, but that he is very, very outdated. 1896 is a different world. I agree that unless a modern source can be found this should go. Athenean (talk) 22:26, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

We need more stuff though on conversions, especially in relation to the Orthodox church and its flock and what their various conditions of the various dioceses that lead to religious conversion. Apart from external Ottoman factors and relations with the wider Muslim populations (peaceful/violent and so on) that propelled conversion, were there internal breakdowns within the church structures that also gave way to those conversions in certain regions and points in time? If any of you or other editors have expertise (and access of knowledge of the scholarship) in those matters, do add. The article is lacking much about that. I have done a lot to update the current state regarding these communties. However more improvement is needed. Best.Resnjari (talk) 07:51, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Problem is stuff like that isn't always so easy to dig up on Library databases, and google scholar. You would be amazed at the amount of total BS on Google Scholar, ~40k hits on scholarly works about Ulysses by Joyce, which makes finding sources a pain especially since I don't know the scholars who specialize in it, and theorize that most of the scholarly work is in either Greek or Turkish. While your point is understood about how the Greek Orthodox Church dealt with external changes, I think something that's important to bear in mind is the fates of the rest of the churches that came under moslem domination. The numbers for all of them in the end eek out to relatively similar amounts, until that genocides started, ie Coptic Orthodox Church, the Church of the East, the Assyrian Orthodox Church, etc. I think a major factor was the economic impacts of remaining Christian, ie the Jiyza tax, as well as constant discrimination, and sporadic pogroms of non-moslems. This realm is a little past my forte which is the Byzantine Empire, but something else that certainly can be worked with is personal connection to God, my understanding is the earlier Orthodox Church stressed the need of a Priest as an intercessor, economic impacts, and also the fact that islam was originally viewed as being a off shoot of Christianity, moslems believe in Jesus, the koran is a somewhat hellenistic work, it recites much of the history from the Bible, and has a lot of points in common, another realm to explore is the economic road presented by Islam of raiding the land of war, which was influential for many converts, to raid Christian lands would enrich the moslems, and if they should be killed they were promised 72 virgins in paradise, where as the Orthodox Church took a much stricter look at killing and forbade it, even for Christian soldiers against moslems, denying them Communion for 2 years afterward as a time of repentance. The Byzantine Emperor Leo the Wise talks about this quite abit, and how that influences Byzantine military strategy, his works should be free online. (Alcibiades979 (talk) 15:13, 29 May 2016 (UTC))

The issues for conversion to which you made reference too relate mainly when Anatolia was going from a Orthodox and Greek speaking Byzantine ruled area into a Muslim and Turkish Ottoman ruled area leaving Greek speaking pockets of both Muslim and Orthodox religions on the coast and their nearby hinterlands. That process relates to the 11tth-14th centuries which resulted in the emergence of today's Anatolia's Turkish population. My comments about needing for this article to address the conversion matter was in relation to a post 1453 environment in which these communities Orthodox Greek speaking fore-bearers and thereafter converted to Islam and acquired some form of Turkish identity while still retaining cultural elements dating from the Byzantine era (namely Greek language and refering to the language as Romeika). As this article covers different communities and geographies it is also somewhat more complicated in a pre-1453 context. Prior to that, the changes taking place in Anatolia where more uniform due to the Beylik system and the rise of Bektashi syncretic Islam which had its influence on the population alongside other factors that you cite. For a extensive study which for the most past still holds in scholarship, see: Speros Vryonis (1971). The decline of medieval Hellenism in Asia Minor: and the process of Islamization from the eleventh through the fifteenth century. University of California Press. There are a few different issues for the reason for conversion of the post-1453 communities. Conversion in Ioannina and Konitsa was done by the local Greek speaking Orthodox elite who became part of the timar class. In Crete after the conquest was done more or less conversion was voluntarily and the Vallades only converted in the late 18th and early 18th century and were mainly Bektashi's. In Pontus conversion points to it being forced. This though is from the literature which i used for the article though did not cite for the conversion matter though. I wanted something more detailed and am still after something more detailed. Regarding the issues of virgins, though i have come across in the material about the ghazi warrior culture and wars done for conquering the area of Anatolia for Islam, nothing about the virgins matter. Also about the Quran being a somewhat hellenistic work is somewhat problematic. On studies on conversion, the Quran derived a large proportion of its conceptual framework from the Judaeo-Christian tradition. The very text proclaims itself to be a successor to the Jewish and Christian texts. That also had a bearing from those like the Bektashi when they went around preaching to the common folk. If you come across stuff, do add. Best.Resnjari (talk) 15:57, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Greek and/or its dialects

Sizable numbers of Grecophone Muslims, not merely the elders but even young people, have retained a knowledge of Greek and/or its dialects, such as Cretan and Pontic Greek.

This phrasing implies that there is a Greek language distinct from its dialects. That is an unfashionable prescriptivism; most linguists would say Standard Greek is one dialect among many.

That aside, "and/or" also implies that many of these people speak both the standard language and regional dialect(s). Is that true?

I would replace "Greek and/or its dialects" with "Greek dialects". —Tamfang (talk) 18:38, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Good observation Tamfang. I corrected it. Demetrios1993 (talk) 00:19, 11 May 2021 (UTC)