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Requested move 14 July 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. The discussion had a lot of assertions, but very little evidence and policy-based arguments. And huge presence of inexperienced or single-purpose accounts did not help. No such user (talk) 10:12, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church → ? @Ricky81682 and Iravikorthanan: – a new move discussion was started in my user talk page. Please discuss here. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:18, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

The Exact Name Has to be Jacobite Syrian Christian Church . Pls See http://www.syrianchurch.org/ which is the official website of the Jacobite church which erroneously Wiki is calling Malankara Jacobite Orthodox church. In fact there is no church named Malankara Jacobite orthodox church in kerala officially. A church may be called by different names , which can be detailed in the article but a totally non existing title for a church is misleading and confusing. Also see the website of their Parent church Syrian Orthodox Church http://syrianorthodoxchurch.org/directories/world/india/ . It clearly states that the Jacobite syrian christian church which is erroneously detailed under the Title Malankara Jacobite Syrian Church is only a Malankara Archdiocese of the Syrian Orthodox Church in India .
Now see the google search record. It is seen that this name is not used as title name any where but only in wikipedia .The google news search with "Malankara Jacobite orthodox church" yields only 136 results however with "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" Yeilds 665 results. Similarly in Google books The name "Malankara Jacobite church" figures only 1600 times but the name Jacobite SyriaN Christain Church Yeilds 27000 results. This Statistics itself shows that 'Jacobite Syrian Christian Church' is the name used for the church and they are commonly refered as jacobiteS.
However I do not ignore the fact that Malankara church of 1653 comprises of those believers now in five different churches some independent and some under the jurisdiction of other churches. And they use The name Malankara along with them.
pls see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malankara_Church Iravikorthanan (talk) 06:04, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
pls see the constitution of Jacobite church http://www.malankaraworld.com/LIBRARY/constitution/Malankara/Yakobaya%20Bharanaghadana.pdf and in particular the Article 12 - 14 Since the document is in Malayalam i will translate the same for better understanding The church is a part of Syrian Orthodox Church and has the name as Jacobite syrian christian church
pls see the Constitution of Syrian Orthodox church http://www.malankaraworld.com/LIBRARY/constitution/syrian-orthodox-church/constitution-syrian-orthodox-church.htm and in particular the article 4 and sub 31 That Jscc is referred as a arch diocese.
pls see the internet tv of this church http://www.malankaravision.com/index.php which clearly states Jacobite Syrian Christian Church
Hence suggested the name , Jacobite Syrian Christian Church which is the legal and official name of the church , the other details such as Malankara and others can be referred inside .Thus the name Malankara JaCobite Syrian Orthodox Church Is inappropriate as the name don not exist in anywhere even church records or official Government channels or documentsIravikorthanan (talk) 10:59, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Request moveThe more common name is Jacobite chuch , Without Suffixes or prefixes , Malankara Jacobite syrian Orthodox church as a name doesnot exist at all, Neither official nor colloquial, However some Jacobite people started using the name it is not widely accepted nor used. The article had the title Jacobite Syrian Christian church from 2007 onwards till 19:37, 2 February 2016‎ till a wiki editor moved page Jacobite Syrian Christian Church to Malanakara Jacobite Syriac Orthodox Church aka Malankara Syrian Church giving the reason that Title is incorrecet. From The statistics based on Google News and Google books ,it is well proved the title Malankara Jacobite orthodox church is highly un popular and un common. And church website , church constitution , Church tv (links given above)categorically states that the name of Church is JACOBITE SYRIAN CHRISTIAN CHURCH. Moreover Malankara Jacobite Orthodox Syrian Church does not figure in any independent, reliable English-language sourcesWikipedia:Identifying reliable sources or neither official sources Wikipedia:Official names. Hence its is strongly requested to rename the article to pre Febrary 2016 which was holding for almost 10 years.Iravikorthanan (talk) 11:15, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose move
  • Please see the 1934 constitution of Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church.(authenticated by the Supreme court of India)

Orthodox Syrian Church ( Syrian Orthodox church) is erroneously called as Jacobites. So the Malankara Church is also erroneously called as Jacobites. Please see the third clause of the constitution which states that [3]The ancient and the real name of the Malankara Church is the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church although it is also wrongly called ‘The Jacobite Church’, for the same reason for which the Orthodox Syrian Church has been also called so.

So what is the problem with Malankara usage ? It says Malankara Church was also erroneously called as Jacobite Church. That means Malankara Church is restricted to the Jacobite Church(Orthodox&Jacobite). Malankara Church=Jacobite Church(Orthodox&Jacobite)(Oriental Orthodox Church) Phantom (talk) 12:10, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

  • Request move
The church referred here is Jacobite syrian christian church under the Patriarch of Antioch ( they have their own constitution) . The 1934 constitution is applicable for the Metran kakshis now called as Malankara Orthodox church under Catholicose and they believe the authority of Patriarch in their church is null. The supreme court has verdict ed in favor of them and . Malankara churches include those churches which was under Marthoma I in 1653 which includes Jacobites, Orthodoxians, Thozhiyoor, MarThoma Syrians , mALANKARA cATHOLICS and evanjelikals of today. Why the Jacobites which got Royal court verdict in favor of them could not succeed in Supreme court of India Later? Because the false canon provided in Royal court was proved manipulated and fraud later ( Recall Kappi canon) in Supreme court. However that is different topic of discussion, Here the name now projected after feb 2016 is just to moot a false and confusing impression , that is why it is requested to move the name to old one which was there since 2007 in wikipedia , which is more common and officialIravikorthanan (talk) 12:35, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Oppose move

  • 1995 Supreme court of India verdict

Court Findings

In A.D. 37 Apostolic See at Antioch was established by St. Peter to whom the stewardship of Church was entrusted by Lord Jesus Christ. It took root in Kerala within 20 years of the epoch making events in Jerusalem, the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ. St. Thomas, one of the 12 apostles of Jesus Christ visited India in A.D. 51/52 and established 7 Churches in the Malayalam speaking parts of South India. They are known as Malankara Jacobite (or orthodox) Syrian Church, "Malankara" means "Malayalam speaking" `The two Syrian Orthodox Churches in Syria and India, along with the Egyptian (Coptic), Ethiopian, and Armenian Churches, belong to the group of Ancient, or Oriental Orthodox, Churches, wrongly called "monophysite".

Thus the learned Supreme court of India authenticated that the Proper uasage is Malankara Jacobite(or Orthodox) Syrian Church. Not less Not more... Phantom (talk) 12:38, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

  • Request move-1995 Supreme court of India verdict* The copy paste is un- reliable. More over its courts interpretation of the conflict between two factions of Jacobite church and not suggesting any name.We are discussing on a name all these explanations of your interpretations can be detailed in the article if need? The discussion is that the name of the article is neither common nor official. It is immaterial what you or a group calls a churchor inteprets its church to be?Iravikorthanan (talk) 12:48, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose move

If copy paste is unreliable, please go and read it in Google..this is the link- www.malankaraorthodoxtv.in/Court%20Orders/Court%20Orders.htm Phantom (talk) 13:04, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

  • Oppose move

Please read the Supreme court of India verdict----- The most sensitive issue which has been subject of great debate in this Court was posed as Question No.18, "Has the Malankara Church become an autocephalous church?

and it was answered against the respondent by recording the finding:- Most. Rev. P.M.A. Metropolitan & ... vs Moran Mar Marthoma & Anr on 20 June, 1995 Indian Kanoon - http://indiankanoon.org/doc/634316/ 25

"We, therefore, hold that the Malankara Church is not an autocephalous church but is a part or division of the world Orthodox Syrian Church and set aside the finding of learned single judge that the Catholicos group has now established an autoceohalous church. We hold that while Patriarch of Antioch is the head of the World Orthodox Syrian church, Catholicos of the East who is subject to the Constitution is head of the Malankara Church and the relationship between Patriarchate and the Malankara Church is governed by the provisions of the Constitution."

This was the finding recorded in Moran Mar Basselios (supra) as well. It has not been challenged, therefore, it has become final. Phantom (talk) 13:27, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

  • Request move I really surprised seeing Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church(?) as title for this article. I do not know the relevance of this discussion itself. Here one user deliberately creating confusion among Wikipedia Editors and Admins by quoting Malankara Orthodox Church's constitution and Supreme Court verdict (in 1995) on Malankara Church Case. Jacobite faction of Malankara Church formed a new constitution in 2002. In this constitution it is clearly written in Malayalam that church name is YAKKOBAYA SURIYANI KRISTHIYANI SABHA that is nothing but JACOBITE SYRIAN CHRISTIAN CHURCH. Also please click on church's official news portal (http://www.jscnews.org)link provided in Infobox . It is written there this site is " Official News Portal of Jacobite Syrian Christian Church". Still any one having doubt, please call up on the Patriarchal Centre(Jacobite Church Center) phone number provided in that website and check with church officials or please send a mail to the e-mail ID given there. Hence requesting the ADMINISTRATORS to change the article title as "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" at the earliest ---45.125.147.173 (talk) 11:47, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose move

I don't want to confuse anybody. I just quoted the 1932 constitution of Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church and 1995 Supreme court of India verdict in Malankara Church case to show that Jacobite Syrian church is a Malankara Church or Malankara branch of the Syriac Orthodox church of Antioch. If you simply say Jacobite church it means Syriac Orthodox church of Antioch. If you say Malankara Jacobite you mean Jacobite christian in India. So Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church is a good title to describe the Indian branch of the Syriac Orthodox Church. Also please see the references I quoted for the names in the Article.Thanks Phantom (talk) 13:47, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

  • Request move Keep the official name of the church. Also church is known by this name only. There is no valid reason I am seeing for keeping the article title as "Malankara *Request move". For indicating this church is Malankara branch of the Syriac Orthodox church of Antioch, we can not change the name of the church. Mention that in the article. Wikipedia editors are not supposed to take church synod's role ---45.126.207.114 (talk) 17:06, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose move

Wikipedia doesn't necessarily use the legal name, instead use the commonly recognized name as title of an article. Also consider reliable third party references . Hence use the most popular and easily recognized name as the title. If we use Jacobite, Malankara should come in front of it because in English wiki, readers are from different parts of the world. It would be easier for them to identify it as an Indian branch of the Jacobite church. Phantom (talk) 20:14, 16 July 2016 (UTC) Phantom (talk) 20:14, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

  • Request move - @Kokkarani, I dont think your statement If we use Jacobite, Malankara should come in front of it because in English wiki, readers are from different parts of the world. does not look valid. Proper description in the preface of the article will resolve this issue. Also use aliases are redirects if needed.- --45.126.206.4 (talk) 13:56, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Oppose move

  • ' @Kokkarani, I dont think your statement If we use Jacobite, Malankara should come in front of it because in English wiki, readers are from different parts of the world. does not look valid.'

Why not valid? Please state your reasons. Thanks Phantom (talk) 18:51, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

  • Request move

@Kokkarani, now let us discuss first on the references provided by me. For me, it proves "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" is the official name and the one in usage also. I request you to provide similar proofs for the current title "Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church". Thanks in Advance -59.95.67.190 (talk) 03:07, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

  • Oppose move

I am also convinced that the legal/official name of the church in discussion is 'Jacobite Syrian Christian Church'. However the article title in Wikipedia might not necessarily be the same. The most common and easily recognizable name is preferred. In that sense I prefer Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church . However this title got confused with Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church. Actually Jacobite is a derogatory term like Nestorian. (Jacobite-followers of Jacob Baradaeus; Nestorian-followers of Nestorius). The church in discussion uses this derogatory name as its official name. I just explained it before that they do it because it is popular and easily distinguishable from the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church. So in my opinion, Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church is the apt title .

The term "Jacobite" was not even their own choice, but was given to them by their Greek Orthodox rivals. They readily accepted it, however. Read more: http://www.everyculture.com/Africa-Middle-East/Jacobites-History-and-Cultural-Relations.html#ixzz4EjY5s8vl

Thus, the church was called Jacob-ites by other Chalcedonian churches to insinuate that the church was new body that formed under Jacob Baradaeus rather than the direct continuation of the Syriac Orthodox Church and the Patriarchate of Antioch.- see the NAME part of this article. Phantom (talk) 05:36, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

  • Request move

About the statement The term "Jacobite" was not even their own choice, but was given to them by their Greek Orthodox rivals. Yes, I agree, this was true in 6th century. But in 2002, it was own choice of holy episcopal synod of Jacobite Church. Then why we need to discuss here whether the term Jacobite is erroneous/derogatory?? Wikipedia should use the official name as title. Again, I want to reiterate the fact "Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Christian Church" is not only a official or legal name of the church but also the common name referred since June 2002 (once the church constitution formed).
Please see below articles from different newspapers. In all theses articles the church is referred as Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church Jacobite Syrian Christian Church. All are recent news on the Church

You can confirm this by Google-News Search by giving "Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church" "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church". But if you try with current title of this wiki article ("Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church") you may not even get a single news article after June 2002. !! -59.95.66.123 (talk) 13:53, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

  • Comment: @Kokkarani and Iravikorthanan:: Please don't write a bolded "vote" ("Request move"; "oppose move") in your subsequent comments. I've stricken them for now, but please don't do any more. It confuses who's saying what and may give a false impression about the level of support and opposition. While you're welcome to make additional comments after your first one, don't add a bolded "vote". And Iravikorthanan, please stick to one account.--Cúchullain t/c 15:02, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

As I stated earlier Malabar/Malankara Jacobite should be distinguished from the Jacobites. Simply Jacobite means Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch. So in order to avoid confusion Malankara be used. More over if we read the history, we know this church is called Malankara church. Phantom (talk) 16:41, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

You also don't need to repeat the same points over and over. That is also confusing.--Cúchullain t/c 16:54, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Dear Cuchullain, Please note, the IP edits are NOT from Iravikorthanan. I am a different user. Accidentally we both are supporting "Request Move". If you can count the IP edits as one vote, pls do otherwise pls consider them as comments from an anonymous user. By the way,are we going to take decision based on just votes? or based on the evidences/proofs/references providing by both the sides?? I think I have given enough evidences for Admins to verify the "actual" name of the church (Jacobite Syrian Christian Church). Even Iravikorthanan has also provided some evidences. Unfortunately User:Kokkarani has not provided any evidences for his stand , rather he talks about court's verdict in church case in 1995 or about constitution of a different church or about the history of the term Jacobites which are not having any relevance in this matter -59.95.66.123 (talk) 16:56, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Ok, I've unstriken the first IP "support" vote. It could still be a problem that you're commenting here with various IP accounts, so thanks for clarifying that they're all coming from one person. To your questions, no, move requests aren't straight votes; the closer will weigh the strength of the arguments and Wikipedia policy. As I say, it's fine to leave additional comments, but repeating the same things isn't going to help us find consensus, it just confuses the discussion.--Cúchullain t/c 17:11, 18 July 2016 (UTC)


Unfortunately User:Kokkarani has not provided any evidences for his stand , rather he talks about court's verdict in church case in 1995 or about constitution of a different church or about the history of the term Jacobites which are not having any relevance in this matter -

Here you go. References which says Malankara Jacobite- these are Independent reliable published works.

1) Russell, Thomas Arthur (2010). Comparative Christianity: A Student's Guide to a Religion and Its Diverse Traditions. Boca Raton, Florida: Universal Publishers. p. 40. ISBN 1599428776.

2) Gregorios; Paulos; Roberson; Ronald G. (2016). The Encyclopedia Of Christianity Online (Syrian Orthodox Churches in India). Netherlands: Brill Online Reference works. ISBN 9789004169678.

3) Lucian N. Leustean (2010). Eastern christianity and the cold war, 1945-91. New York: Routeledge Taylor&Francis Group. p. 317. ISBN 0-203-86594-4.

4) Erwin Fahlbusch.(2008) The Encyclopedia of Christianity, Volume 5. p. 285. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing. ISBN 978-0-8028-2417-2.

5) Frykenberg, Eric (2008). Christianity in India: from Beginnings to the Present, p. 374. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-826377-5.

Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 20:00, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

These references are useful only to prove that the church is also known as Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church. In 2002, church declared its name as "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church". Some of these books had their first edition before 2002 and might be continuing contents without updating all these changes happening around the world. One of these books listing Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church in first place as the name of the church - That is not accurate too !! Another important thing we need to notice is that Lucian N. Leustean edited the book Eastern christianity and the cold war, 1945-91 (#3 in the list provided by the User:Kokkarani), he is referring the church as "Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church" but when Lucian N. Leustean edited next book in 2014 on the subject Eastern Christianity Eastern Christianity and Politics in the Twenty-First Century he mentions the church name as THE JACOBITE SYRIAN CHRISTIAN CHURCH (OR THE MALANKARA JACOBITE SYRIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH). In his first book it is just a loose remark but in his second book it is a detailed explanation. Now my question is: Why do Wikipedia go back in time and pick one of the old names or aliases. I request co-editors and admins to change the article title to "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church". We can have the redirection link as "Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church" , also mention in preface that this church is also known like this. This will resolve the issue of confusion arises for any reader with the official name (and commonly using name in present time) of the church. But I am not even anticipating any such confusions. Looks like it as an unnecessary worry of some editors. But I can say, if we are not using the actual name of the church in title and first place in Wikipedia article, it will lead to confusion. Thanks ---45.126.206.72 (talk) 03:23, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Malankara Jacobite Syrian church existed from 1665 as Oriental Orthodox church in different names at different points of time. All are the same church- Malankara Syrian Church Please see the preface in Malankara church.

The Malankara Church is a church of the Saint Thomas Christians of Kerala, India, with particular emphasis on the part of the community that joined Archdeacon Mar Thoma in swearing to resist the authority of the Portuguese Padroado in 1653. This faction soon entered into a relationship with the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch, and was thereafter often known as the Malankara Syrian Church.(Gregorios & Roberson, p. 285.; Vadakkekara, p. 91.) Malankara Syrian Church means Malankara Syrian Orthodox church. Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 04:10, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Dear Kokkarani is cleverly distorting facts
Marthoma 1 who was the Archdeacon of the entire st thomas Christians was elevated as Marthoma in 1653 by an indigenous tradition of laying hands of 12 priests. In fact Archdeacon Was not only a spiritual leader but also a political leader of St thomas christians. However the jesuits and carmalites propagated a theory that the consecration practiced Among St Thomas Christians is invalid. This prompted the St thomas christians and Mar Thoma I to write letters to different see's which st thomas christians have historic fraternity. They wrote letter s to Church of East, Church Of alexandria, Church of Antioch. The Patriarch bishop of Jerusalem (whether he is a Jacobite??) heard the plea and he came over Malankara to consecrate Marthoma 1 with proper apostolic validity in 1665. There is no reference that the church became under church of Antioch or any other because of this act. Mar Thoma Christians followed the same old chaldean east syriac tradition.If instead of a Jacobite prelate if an alexandrian or armenian prelate came in 1665 whether church would have been under them?
  • None of the Mar thoma Thirumenis were consecrated as Bishops or metropolitans of church of antioch or with consent or permission of patriarch.
They were all consecrated as Bishops of SURIYANI PUTHENKOOR CHRISTIANS.
  • Church of St Thomas was never called as Malankara Syrian Church till 19 th century. Missionary registers called the church as Syrian Church Of malabar. Jesuits and catholics called the church as Church of Malabar. The Book cHRISTIAN rESEARCH IN ASIA he narrates his conversation with a priest in mavelikara. there was no mention of a alleged church of antioch connection as suggested. Malabar and Malankara are used in same context t o show the kerala coast,
  • TRAVANCORE ROYAL COURT VERDICT WAS A TURNING POINT IN JURISPRUDENCE PRACTICED OR BELIEVED TILL THEN all earlier court verdict and royal decrees favored independent status for puthen koor christians
  1. oath of Koonan Cross 1653: Church is not under Pope
  2. Arthat Padiyola 1808 : Church is not under Jacobites
  3. Kandanad Padiyola:1806 Church is independent
  4. deportation of Abdul Mar athanasious :1825 Those who oppose Malankara Metropolitan will be deported
  5. allepy court verdict against eUYAKIN MAR KOORLOS to be Malankara metran :1850s: Malankara church is independent and dissolved Cheppad divaniyos decision of handing over power to euyakim mar koorlose
  6. mAdrass court verdit against Euyakim Mar koorlos and in favour of Thozhiyoor church.:1862 :Thozhiyoor church is independent
however the following documents suggest antioch subordination
  1. consecration of Palakkunnathu Mathews Mar Athanasious by Jacobite patriarch :1843 :First time a prelate consecrated directly by patriarch for Malankara .
  2. Mavelikara padiyola- first document to show malankara church was jacobite:1836. Malankara church cannot accept anglican reforms as we are jacobites under patriarch
  3. Mulanthurathy Padiyola- the formal agreement that brought Malankara church under complete control of patriarch:1876: We are Malankara dioceses of Jacobite church. Malnkara church was divided to 7 diocess and demolished Supremacy of Malankara Metropolitan by consecrating 6 Metropolitans for each diocess
  4. royal court verdict. based on above two document and the exhibit 15 kappi kanon (non existing law book) . Majority verdict(hindu judges): Malankara church is not independent however Minority verdict (christian judge) Malankara church is independent and as ols as church of antioch
In any circumstance JSCC cannot claim that they are Malankara church just by editting 20-30 yrs of 2000 yrs of malankara history to prove antiochian subordination.However the present title dof the name does not exist as at all.Iravikorthanan (talk) 06:13, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Sorry I am not distorting any facts, however I present these facts for your consideration.

1) ( Marthoma 1 who was the Archdeacon of the entire st thomas Christians was elevated as Marthoma in 1653 by an indigenous tradition of laying hands of 12 priests.)

No. There was no such indigenous tradition of ordination of a bishop. This was an emergency step as there were no bishops available to ordinate him as a bishop. Marthoma knew this ordination was not canonical. He could not submit any valid canonical document in front of the King to prove his ordination is valid. Even now we know that some priests together couldn't ordain a bishop. So we accept that the ordination was not regular.

2) ( However the jesuits and carmalites propagated a theory that the consecration practiced Among St Thomas Christians is invalid.)

They didn't propagate a theory, however they just took advantage of the fact that the ordination was not proper; and people believed it. Catholics could reclaim a large people to their fold.

3) (This prompted the St thomas christians and Mar Thoma I to write letters to different see's which st thomas christians have historic fraternity. They wrote letters to Church of East, Church Of Alexandria, Church of Antioch. The Patriarch bishop of Jerusalem (whether he is a Jacobite??) heard the plea and he came over Malankara to consecrate Marthoma 1 with proper apostolic validity in 1665.)

The Syriac Orthodox Bishop of Jerusalem Gregorios Abdal Jaleel regularized the consecration of Mar Thoma I in 1665 and they forged a relationship each other.

4) (There is no reference that the church became under church of Antioch or any other because of this act. Mar Thoma Christians followed the same old chaldean east syriac tradition.If instead of a Jacobite prelate if an alexandrian or armenian prelate came in 1665 whether church would have been under them)

You may check when the Chaldean church was formed. It was formed only in the 16th century AD. What you mean by the East Syrian tradition? Is it Nestorian? or Chaldean? Whether Malankara church came under the authority of the Syrian church or not, it adopted Oriental Orthodox faith from Mar Gregorios Abdal Jaleel. Hence the rival faction, the Catholics called them Puthenkoor Syrians showing their new loyalty. This itself is a good reference that the Malankara church adopted Oriental Orthodox faith from 1665. Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 17:00, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Why do we need to discuss the church history here for deciding the title for the article. I think we need to do this immediately in another section because I am seeing a chart St Thomas Christians divisions.svg is being replaced by a new one Saint Thomas Christian's - Divisions- History.png in many places in Wikipedia by an editor without a proper reasoning or justification. I am not sure the new chart has gone through a review by other editors/admins OR at least it is noticed by other editors. But in this section let's limit our discussion on finding the actual name of the church. I am saying in 2002, Jacobite church formed a new constitution. Here we don't need to discuss, whether Jacobite church existed from 1665CE or 52 CE in same form or different form or which was the constitution they had been following till June 2002. But once this constitution formed , Jacobite church clearly mentioned in the constitution that name of this church is "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church". Then onward Church has been using "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" as the title - legally , officially and in common usage. Here again we don't have to discuss whether the term "Jacobite" is derogatory or erroneous because this decision has taken by the episcopal synod of Jacobite Church. In my previous talks I provided evidences that even media is referring this church as "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church". Also the authors started referring the church as "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" who referred this church as "Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church" in their previous books. Let Wikipedia also use same title for the article - "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church". Why do we need to use a non-existing name or some aliases and bringing confusion to readers? Looks like some wiki editors for some reasons do not like the name "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" and wanted to hide this name. That is the only reason I am seeing for changing the actual name in the title and taking it out from the preface in the article. What we will do if another user come tomorrow and claim for a new name for the church using another permutation-combination of the terms "Malankara", "Malabar", "India", "East", "Jacobite", "Syrian", "Syriac", "Orthodox", "St.Thomas" with some references from here and there. This is not only going to happen for this article. Similar claims can arise in articles of other Kerala Churches too if we are taking a deviation here. Hence let's stick to the actual name of the church as the title of the article that is nothing but "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" -59.95.64.184 (talk) 21:00, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

If you have any complaint about the diagram as you mentioned, it should be discussed there. Please don't divert the matter of this discussion saying this and that. Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 01:22, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

I am not diverting the topic. I am confident and consistent in my arguments. Seeing a long discussion in Malankara Church history, I am requesting everyone, not to get into the church history for this topic. It is irrelevant here to take a decision in this matter. These arguments would be useful when we are verifying the diagram/chart. Yes, we need to verify that once we close this. -59.95.64.184 (talk) 02:33, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

As I have given enough independent reliable published references, I request the the present name (Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church) to be kept. Also please note that my opponent/opponents only produced some news paper references. Thanks Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 03:13, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

It has to be seriously noted that there were a set of edit war in all related pages of Malankara Church and ST Thomas christian after the deliberate change of this particular Article. The Name WAS Changed to Malankara Jacobite Orthodox Church Aka Malankara Syrian Church. And there by reverting a large number of positive edits of the past to suit that Jacobite Syrian Christian Church is Malankara Church IN fEB 2016 . The detrimental efforts are noticed in wIKI pAGES lIKE St Thomas Christians, Malankara Church, Marthoma Church, Malankara Orthodox Church, Malankara Metropolitan, Marthoma Metran, Malabar Independent syrian Church, Syro Malankara, Syro mALABAR etc.The counter productive edits have resulted in chain edits in all those pages. IS there a ANTIOCHIAN Subordination FROM BEGINING or FROM 1665 IN PARTICULAR. Which is totally debatable and un-accepted by any church or church historians (other than jacobite). NBKokkarani Chaldean is used in Ref to the area Mesopotamia and Babylon where east syriac (estrangelo) is prevalent and it is not in ref of a rite church. The puthenkoor term is in relation with their loyalty to "Marthoma . the consecration by Patriarch Abdul Mar gregorious of Jerushalem happened many years after that. West syriac was formally introduced in Malankara after centuries later from the time of Maphrian Ivanious Mar Hidhayathulla popularly called as Idol breaker of Malankara. The authenticated use of west syriac started in malankara from 1876 onward. This is the reason why even now many syriac word in Marthoma ,Thozhiyoor churches are spelt in east syriac style
  1. However now we have to focus only one aspect the Name of the article .whether Jacobite Syrian Christian Church has a Name "Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church?
  2. Whether it is a officially approved name? By constitution, census reports, church publication, church websites,etc
  3. whether the name is a popular one?Iravikorthanan (talk) 06:40, 20 July 2016 (UTC)


  • (The puthenkoor term is in relation with their loyalty to "Marthoma . the consecration by Patriarch Abdul Mar gregorious of Jerushalem happened many years after that.)

NO, Coonan cross Oath was in 1653 & Regularization of Marthoma was in 1665. It took only 12 years. The faction who was loyal to Marthoma was called Malankara Church and the other faction was called Roman Catholic church. However in 1665 Marthoma forged a relationship with Greorios Abdal Jaleel and accepted Kaiveppu(traditional apostolic succession). Thus the learned historians say that they accepted new loyalty or Puthen koor. It is at this point the rival faction started calling them Puthen koor Syrians. The term Syrian is associated with the Syrian church, not with the language they use. If it was with the language they use , then they should have been called Syriac Christian. Chaldean church was called Chaldean. East Syrian Church was called Nestorian. Monophysite church was called Syrian. Those monophysites who united with the catholic church are called Syrian Catholics(middle east, not in India)

Jacobite church is definitely a Malankara Church , the other being Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church.(Both are Malankara branch of the Syrian Orthodox church of Antioch). (vide ref. 1995 Supreme court of India final verdict in Malankara church case) Please see the link - www.malankaraorthodoxtv.in/Court%20Orders/Court%20Orders.htm

Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 16:15, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Dear User:Kokkarani(aka Phantom and Mandrake the Magician), many of your above arguments are highly debatable. I can say its extreme Jacobite biased version of Kerala Church History. Anyway, lets come to the point - What is the ACTUAL name of this church? You said:As I have given enough independent reliable published references.....my opponent/opponents only produced some news paper references, Did you not see links of Jacobite church constitution, Official Website, SOC Patriarch's & Regional Head (Catholicos)'s pastoral messages which I shared above? "independent reliable published references" are good in many cases as a third party reference like in claim of population etc. But in this case, church references are IMPORTANT. This church had been referred by many names in past. But in 2002, Church declared in its constitution that this church name is "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" without any doubt . Wikipedia can not take a deviation here for one editor's POV unless the editor is not proving otherwise. Please see below the links from church publication website:

Since some editors here are big fans of Court Orders, I am providing link to a court document (in 2013):

Media/newspaper references are also important. if it is in one newspaper we can ignore it. But if all of them refers the church in same way we can not ignore that !! Requesting everyone to check the news on one recent incident related to Jacobite church: Please search in Google with the keywords "Priyanka Chopra" and "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" including quotes and again with "Priyanka Chopra" and "Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church" including quotes- ADMINS can easily find out the fact that "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" is the common name using for referring the church. Thanks - 45.126.205.180 (talk) 03:15, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

The above link is just your reference. It just says Jacobite & Orthodox factions of the Malankara Church. The news media also knows Jacobites and Orthodox are 2 factions of the Malankara Church. Thanks.Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 04:29, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

@Kokkarani, I am not understanding what you are trying to say! Here no one said its not a Malankara Church. But as wikipedia editors we can not alter the name of a church to indicate its a Malankara church or its an Orthodox Church. By the way, you please read the last line in that article: Catholicos Baselios Thomas I, head, Jacobite Syrian Christian Church, welcomed the SC order: “The Jacobite Church has been demanding a permanent solution for the stand off with the Orthodox Church. Jacobite Church wants to find a solution through talks and by settling cases,” the prelate said. There is no "Malankara" and "Orthodox" in the church name -45.125.146.48 (talk) 13:32, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

It is one of the many churches earlier part of unified Malankara Church or in a simple way its one of the Malankara churches. It is integral part of Syriac Orthodox Church also. So what?? -45.125.146.48 (talk) 14:43, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

It is a Nasrani church too. So what?? -45.125.146.48 (talk) 15:17, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

  • So this church is a Malankara church ; Also it is an integral part of the Syrian Orthodox church. That is the reason why I proposed the title -Malankara (Jacobite) Syrian Orthodox church. Thanks. Mandrake_the_Magician (talk) 17:55, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, Totally against this proposal. Reason is: it's a POV edit/proposal from one User. There is a high chance tomorrow another user will come and propose a different name Malankara Jacobite Syriac Orthodox Church or some other name using a different combination of the terms Malankara, Jacobite, Orthodox, Syrian, Syriac, Nasrani, India, East etc. Wikipedia is not encouraging POV edits. Also similar proposals will come up in other Kerala churches articles too if we take a deviation here. For example, in Syro-Malabar Catholic Church there is a demand from individuals including priests that the present name is a misnomer and it need to be changed as "Mar Thoma Nazrani Church". Similar case with Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, many forums in the church wanted to change the name officially as "Indian Orthodox Church". All of them come to Wikipedia with these kind of name change proposals, we can not agree with that. We have to use official name of the church as the the title of Wiki article including this church. As I said before its not just a name which is in papers. This is the name commonly using since June 2002. ---45.126.205.206 (talk) 01:45, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

@Cuchullain and other Wikipedia Admins, Let us stick to the official name of the church ("Jacobite Syrian Christian Church") instead using a POV proposal of One User as the title of this article.-45.126.205.206 (talk) 01:55, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

@Cuchullain and other Wikipedia Admins, Please restore the original title ("Jacobite Syrian Christian Church") of this article. I have given enough references from church websites and other materials available online which clearly states name of this church is "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church". I could understand from the edit history, title of this article changed with below edit. (cur | prev) 19:37, 2 February 2016‎ Kokkarani (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (62,336 bytes) (0)‎ . . (Jogytmathew moved page Jacobite Syrian Christian Church to Malanakara Jacobite Syriac Orthodox Church aka Malankara Syrian Church: Title is incorrecet). Anyone can understand, this is a pure POV editing and POV editing is NOT acceptable as per Wikipedia policies. - 59.95.66.234 (talk) 00:45, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

This is an WP:RM discussion. It will be closed by an uninvolved admin in due time. It will likely take them quite some time to get through the above back and forth, which is one reason i suggested you all stop repeating your positions again and again.--Cúchullain t/c 02:30, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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